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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #1 
I am looking for some ways to control a card to the top of the deck without doing the Pass or shuffling.

I know one method which is in Jon Racherbaumer's Card Finesse 2 which he calls a Bluff Pass.

Any suggestions would be helpful.

Best,
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Chi Han

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Reply with quote  #2 
In what context is the card selected?
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Rudy Tinoco

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Reply with quote  #3 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScreenguardGuy
In what context is the card selected?

Dorian demonstrated the Shinobo Control flawlessly at our last session.

Such a great way to get a card to the top with very little handling.

It was created by Emran Riaz and you can get it at Theory 11.

Rudy




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Dorian Rhodell

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Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tinoco

Dorian demonstrated the Shinobo Control flawlessly at our last session.

Such a great way to get a card to the top with very little handling.

It was created by Emran Riaz and you can get it at Theory 11.

Rudy





Well...keep in mind that the control mentioned is best used after a card is revealed face up in the deck.

Here are a few that come to mind.

Bluff pass
Bluff pass using no top card. That's the way it was originally devised btw.
Leipzig and screened Leipzig pass. They're not passes so don't let the title throw you off.
Ooops control
Ricky Smith's cherry control
Charlie Miller cascade control
Side steal (study Marlo for that)
Oliver Macia's WOW control

And I'm sure you'll you find a ton of stuff in any of the Lorayne books but that should get you started.

Hope this helps a little.
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Unfinished Sentenc

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Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logan Five
I know one method which is in Jon Racherbaumer's Card Finesse 2 which he calls a Bluff Pass.



Technically, a Bluff Pass doesn't control your card to the top of the deck (assuming that it's the same as the Bluff Pass in Greater Magic). Personally, I prefer the top card cover pass for controlling a card second from the top, though I rarely do it now.

For controlling a card to the top, the Side Steal is very deceptive. It took me for a while to get it down though. I had difficulty with the "click" sound the card produce during the steal...

While it's a pass, the spread pass is easier to execute than a classic pass and it provides you with lots of cover. So you may want to learn it as well. I learned it from Card Magic of LePaul but there are several other good sources out there.


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rready

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Reply with quote  #6 
Also in the LePaul book he has something called the One Hand Fan Jog control which is great. Gilles Couture(card to top) has one in Apocalypse that also is excellent. The Swivel Cut Control by Gary Ouillet in his finger on the card booklet. The Break-Up Control by R. Paul Wilson is also good.
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Paul Hallas

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Reply with quote  #7 
Marlo had a spread control to the top in Marlo Without Tears I've used often.

Also use one of mine first detailed in my book "Magic From The Overground" within the effect "Back To Partagus".
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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #8 
Second the motion for Side Steal. Check out Paul Cummins' work on this move. It's an excellent control to the top.

Ken Krenzel has a Bluff Pass variant that goes to the top rather than second from top. It's bold - your right hand acts as though it's holding half the deck as in a bluff pass but it's completely empty! Thus the spectator just puts her card on top of the deck. Then you mime placing the half you're supposedly holding back on top. Try it when you're feeling invincible. 

Mike
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tommyellison

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Logan Five
I am looking for some ways to control a card to the top of the deck without doing the Pass or shuffling.

I know one method which is in Jon Racherbaumer's Card Finesse 2 which he calls a Bluff Pass.

Any suggestions would be helpful.

Best,


Would a simple "Double Undercut" be considered shuffling?

Tommy

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Harry Lorayne

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Reply with quote  #10 
  If you do an overhand injog shuffle immediately after the double undercut, then it sure would be.
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Michaelblue

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Reply with quote  #11 
If you're into bluff passes, Aaron Fisher's Nowhere Pass works quite well. Takes a little getting used to, but it sure is fun.
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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #12 
And I thought this was going to be a tough question.

Such good advice..I don't know where to start.
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Steven Youell

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logan Five
I am looking for some ways to control a card to the top of the deck without doing the Pass or shuffling.

Could you give us some context and tell us why? This would be important in making a suggestion.

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EVILDAN

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Reply with quote  #14 
double undercut

also, check out "Losing Control" by Lee Asher available at Lybrary.com - it's diabolical.

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Magic-Aly

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Yes, many good suggestions. Here is what I use 90% of the time in close-up situations (*A. is when there is a table available; B. is when there is no table available):

A. Assuming you are right-handed, hold the deck face down in biddle grip with RH at about chest height. Your palm-up LH is held 6 inches directly below RH. Dribble the cards from the RH down into the waiting left hand asking spectator to say "stop" whenever he/she likes.  When spectator calls stop, tilt cards in LH up into a vertical position and thumb off to the side the top card of the cards held in LH so that spectators can see at least half the card, as you turn your head away.  With your head still turned away, ask them to please remember that card.

Thumb the card back over until it is directly on top of and square with the cards held by LH as you lower the cards held by LH back into a horizontal position. Dribble the remaining cards held by right hand down on top of the cards held in LH, but in the process of dribbling the remainder of the RH's cards, injog the first few cards that drop down from the RH and dribble the remaining cards in the RH carelessly onto the cards being held by LH until the LH holds the entire deck.

Square up, getting a LH pinky flesh break above the selected card, and then with RH, cut small packets to the table one on top of the other until all the cards above the break have been cut to the table. Slap the remaining packet being held by RH on top of the cards you have cut to the table, and the selection is now on top. The entire process, from when you first start dribbling cards from RH down to LH until the remaining packet is slapped down to the table, should take no more than about 10 seconds.  (*If you are left-handed, reverse the procedure accordingly).

B. Do everything exactly as in A, above until the point at which you have squared up and secured the break.  Pause for a moment, and as you address a question or remark to the spectator(s), casually cut the cards at the break and complete the cut right in your hands. This is not a double-undercut, but one simple cut.

What I like about these controls is that: (1) You never need to ask a spectator to "pick a card." (2) You do not need to ask the spectator to replace the card, or especially, to put their card in a place that you designate, which arouses suspicion of a control. (3) The procedure seems very casual and fair, and the selection genuinely seems lost in the deck. (4) It's easy and reliable. (5) No shuffling or pass is required, which I believe were the original criteria laid down by Logan Five.

Note: I do not know for sure if these controls are my creation (or independent co-creation?), and if they are not, whom to credit.  I do know that the rather common move of cutting small packets from above the break to the table is certainly not my original move, but I do not know who in particular should be given credit for it.


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Paul Hallas

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic-Aly


Note: I do not know for sure if these controls are my creation (or independent co-creation?), and if they are not, whom to credit.  I do know that the rather common move of cutting small packets from above the break to the table is certainly not my original move, but I do not know who in particular should be given credit for it.



I've done both of these myself for a looooong time. The cutting of packets to the table I do remember reading somewhere around thirty or so years ago but cannot recall where. With a table present I prefer it to the standard in the hands double undercut. 

I never mentioned these as I mis-read the initial post to be no shuffles, passes or  cuts  [confused].
I thought the sloppy dribble bit was my own bit of nonsense too, but I bet thousands of other magicians do also. I know when Steve Friedberg saw me do it several years ago at Mingus Magic I don't think he liked it lol. Not elegant, but gets the job done for lay people. 
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mark lewis

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Reply with quote  #17 

When I was a kid I only knew one method! A corner crimp of the bottom card. The card was replaced under this card with an undercut. It used to work very well believe it or not until I found more sophisticated methods in the future. 

But check out the Blackstone Roly Poly pass if you can ever find it. I have never seen it performed by a single living soul and the only place I have read it was in an old book supposedly by Blackstone but really written by Walter Gibson. There is something similar in the Paul Le Paul book but it really is not the same at all. 

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Magic-Aly

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Reply with quote  #18 
PAUL HALLAS WROTE: I've done both of these myself for a looooong time. The cutting of packets to the table I do remember reading somewhere around thirty or so years ago but cannot recall where. With a table present I prefer it to the standard in the hands double undercut. I never mentioned these as I mis-read the initial post to be no shuffles, passes or  cuts...I thought the sloppy dribble bit was my own bit of nonsense too..."

Just to be clear, the intent of my post was not to claim credit for the techniques I described or to usurp the credit from anyone else, but to offer something that has worked very well for me for many years, and the reasoning for why I do it that way, in the hopes that some people might derive benefit from it.
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Dorian Rhodell

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Powers
Second the motion for Side Steal. Check out Paul Cummins' work on this move. It's an excellent control to the top.

Ken Krenzel has a Bluff Pass variant that goes to the top rather than second from top. It's bold - your right hand acts as though it's holding half the deck as in a bluff pass but it's completely empty! Thus the spectator just puts her card on top of the deck. Then you mime placing the half you're supposedly holding back on top. Try it when you're feeling invincible. 

Mike


Hey Mike!
The bluff pass I believe you are describing is printed in Roger Klause's book.
However, it goes way back before that. The original version used no cards and it wasn't as finessed.
You can find the original description in Westminster Wizardry.
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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Youell

Could you give us some context and tell us why? This would be important in making a suggestion.


I don't want to do the same move twice in a row on different effects.


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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #21 
Hi Dorian,

Thanks for the info on the BP. I thought it was Krenzel?? Oh well just another brain fart from an old guy!

BTW loved your lecture dude! Great stuff. The item where the three random cards become three copies of the selection went right into my working repertoire. I'll be using that this Sunday at a gig.

Hope all goes well with you and yours.

Mike
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mark lewis

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Reply with quote  #22 
I have been doing that bluff pass for decades. I mean the one where the card comes right to the top rather than second top. It works great and I am usually more baffled than the spectator that it fools them.  I learned it from Bobby Bernard when he did a lecture for the junior section of the London Society of Magicians. That should should give you an idea how old the move is. 
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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #23 
I really like the thought of doing a double undercut followed by an injog shuffle. It works!!

And I didn't even have to buy a dvd either.

Thanks for all your help..

Peace,
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Michaelblue

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Reply with quote  #24 
I second Lee Asher's Losing Control
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Dorian Rhodell

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Powers
Hi Dorian,

Thanks for the info on the BP. I thought it was Krenzel?? Oh well just another brain fart from an old guy!

BTW loved your lecture dude! Great stuff. The item where the three random cards become three copies of the selection went right into my working repertoire. I'll be using that this Sunday at a gig.

Hope all goes well with you and yours.

Mike


Thanks Mike I appreciate it!

If you ever decide you want to chat online, let me know and I'll give you a tip on how to go south with the card in a flash as well as a more difficult handling that is fun for magicians.

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Steven Youell

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Reply with quote  #26 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Logan Five
I don't want to do the same move twice in a row on different effects.


May I ask why? And I do have a very specific reason for asking.


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StevePR104

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Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Hallas

II thought the sloppy dribble bit was my own bit of nonsense too, but I bet thousands of other magicians do also. I know when Steve Friedberg saw me do it several years ago at Mingus Magic I don't think he liked it lol. Not elegant, but gets the job done for lay people. 


Now, just WAIT a second.

And Dorian, Howie demonstrated the no-top-card Bluff Pass to me a number of years ago.  It's ballsy as hell, but works. However, you must condition your spectator for what's to come...and you do that through the sound of the cards being replaced on the top of the talon.
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Paul Hallas

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Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevePR104


Now, just WAIT a second.

And Dorian, Howie demonstrated the no-top-card Bluff Pass to me a number of years ago.  It's ballsy as hell, but works. However, you must condition your spectator for what's to come...and you do that through the sound of the cards being replaced on the top of the talon.


I've never come across the Bluff Pass with no top card but can see that it would work. The spectator should be conditioned for what's to come with any Bluff Pass of course.

Not used the Bluff Pass for years, started doing it for a while after reading Bobby Bernard's book, and Andrew Gallaway's "Diverting Card Magic". I think I should dig out the Galloway book again... [smile] 
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Paul Hallas

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic-Aly
PAUL HALLAS WROTE: I've done both of these myself for a looooong time. The cutting of packets to the table I do remember reading somewhere around thirty or so years ago but cannot recall where. With a table present I prefer it to the standard in the hands double undercut. I never mentioned these as I mis-read the initial post to be no shuffles, passes or  cuts...I thought the sloppy dribble bit was my own bit of nonsense too..."

Just to be clear, the intent of my post was not to claim credit for the techniques I described or to usurp the credit from anyone else, but to offer something that has worked very well for me for many years, and the reasoning for why I do it that way, in the hopes that some people might derive benefit from it.


I certainly didn't take your post that way at all, the last couple of sentences of your post made that obvious I think. I appreciate it was a helpful post. My comment about having read one of the ideas around thirty years ago was to perhaps jog someone else's memory of books of that period that may have mentioned it. My apologies if my post came across as some kind of slap on the wrist, that was not my intention at all. There is lots of independent invention in magic when people are reading the same/similar inspirational materials. 
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Magic-Aly

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Reply with quote  #30 
PAUL HALLAS WROTE: "I certainly didn't take your post that way at all, the last couple of sentences of your post made that obvious I think. I appreciate it was a helpful post. My comment about having read one of the ideas around thirty years ago was to perhaps jog someone else's memory of books of that period that may have mentioned it. My apologies if my post came across as some kind of slap on the wrist, that was not my intention at all. There is lots of independent invention in magic when people are reading the same/similar inspirational materials."

No worries, Paul, I understand. Really glad you are here! 
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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #31 
In checking out Roger's "Bluff Bluff Pass" in RK in Concert, I dug into Epilogue and found a nice Bluff pass subtlety by Klause. It's in Epilogue 10.

You lift one card as half the deck as in a standard BP. When the spec returns her card, you bring the RH over the deck and use the R thumb to injog her selection a bit. Now place the single card into Tilt position on top. The illusion is that you must have put about half the deck down since the spec can see that her card is half way down due to Tilt. Cool idea.

Mike
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Dorian Rhodell

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevePR104


Now, just WAIT a second.

And Dorian, Howie demonstrated the no-top-card Bluff Pass to me a number of years ago.  It's ballsy as hell, but works. However, you must condition your spectator for what's to come...and you do that through the sound of the cards being replaced on the top of the talon.


I'm just going off the book printed in 1928 by Frederick Montague.

To achieve the "slapping" sound, all you have to do is slap the top of the deck with a little force. I have found using the pad of the Palm underneathe the second finger works best.

This way, no conditioning is necessary...just slap and go. Ok..that sounded awkward.

This would be fun online session only to discuss this move!

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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Youell



May I ask why? And I do have a very specific reason for asking.



I just don't think it's a good idea to do back to back moves with 2 different effects. I am not sure what you are getting at ?
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StevePR104

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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorian Rhodell
I'm just going off the book printed in 1928 by Frederick Montague. To achieve the "slapping" sound, all you have to do is slap the top of the deck with a little force. I have found using the pad of the Palm underneathe the second finger works best. This way, no conditioning is necessary...just slap and go. Ok..that sounded awkward. This would be fun online session only to discuss this move!


Why, yes...yes, it did.  [smile]

Howie recommended using the knuckle of your index finger to approximate the sound.  I don't use the move very much, primarily with other magicians.
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Steven Youell

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Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logan Five
I just don't think it's a good idea to do back to back moves with 2 different effects. I am not sure what you are getting at ?

That's why I asked for your reasoning-- I thought perhaps you might have reasons other than "I just don't think it's a good idea".

Here's what I'm getting at: since card controls should be transparent to the spectators, it doesn't matter if you use the same control back to back. Did you think a spectator is going to say "He used a Bluff Pass twice!"?

If a control is properly selected and properly done, you should be able to do it several times in a row without a single spectator even having a clue that you're controlling the card. If it's done well, the audience will not even think about it afterwards. In fact, they won't even remember how the card was selected or replaced.

If you're worried about a spectator noticing a card control was done twice or even thrice in a row, then most probably something is wrong with your selection/control procedure or your execution.

I have three controls I use regularly-- the selection procedure and the replacement procedure look exactly alike for all three. In the majority of cases, the selection and replacement should appear to the audience as something that you just need to get out of the way before the fun starts.

Please note: I am not trying to irritate you with these questions, but I'm not one to give advice blindly. I want to understand the situation as much as I can before I offer my opinion. If anyone wants clarification or has questions, I'd be glad to answer them.

Having said all of that, it could also be that you just like learning controls or perhaps you're just worried about nothing. If that's the case, then please consider this post a general commentary on Card Controls that someone might find useful... [biggrin]

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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #36 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Youell



If a control is properly selected and properly done, you should be able to do it several times in a row without a single spectator even having a clue that you're controlling the card. If it's done well, the audience will not even think about it afterwards. In fact, they won't even remember how the card was selected or replaced.


 

Maybe I was just being fussy about this whole matter. I've never been nailed doing the move and it seems that I have done it forever so there is truth in what your saying.

I do a Triumph routine and follow it with Ortiz's Maximum Risk. I'll try it out using the same control back to back.

I do like the idea of doing a double undercut followed by a in-jog shuffle. I know a lot of gambling type moves but not so-much utility moves that magician's do.

Best,

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Magic-Aly

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Reply with quote  #37 
Just to toss my 2 cents into the mix, I very rarely do more than one card trick/routine in a set that involves having a spectator choose a card and the magician then controlling that card, much less two such tricks in a row.  There are so many great card effects that do not require having a card controlled (Magician Versus Gambler, Three Card Monte Effects, Poker Deals, Out of this World, Spectator Cuts to the Aces, Dr. Daley's Last Trick, McDonald's Aces, to name but a few).  

By and large I find that such tricks are more enjoyable to spectators anyway, because many people have an inmate defensiveness to "pick-a'card" tricks. In many cases, it's because they have seen such tricks poorly done by their Uncle Harold, a friend, or whomever. In the past, I have even had situations where I asked someone at an event to pick a card and they immediately said, "I've seen that one," and they turned and walked away. In most cases, it sets up a challenge, where they are then looking to try to catch you because they know you are going to control the card, especially since (no offense intended) most magicians direct them where they are to reinsert their card in the deck.

In my on experience, I have found that generally they enjoy and and are astounded most by tricks that involve a story, or effects where the magic happens in their own hands, such as OOTW and Dr. Daley's Last Trick.

The one trick that I have found is invariably worth whatever down side may be involved in having a card selected/controlled is Card on the Ceiling. In my opinion, it is not only the greatest card trick of all, but one of the greatest magic tricks period. It is by far the most requested trick by regulars who return to the restaurants where I regularly perform and who return with friends and family.

Even then, no suspicious move is involved, as you can simply turn the top card of the deck over as they are signing their selection, replace their signed selection face up on that card (being careful not to flash in doing so), turn the double face down and insert their (apparent) card into the middle.  Then just affix the rubber band(s) and ask them for a drum roll...It will be remembered and talked about long after 99% of other card tricks are long forgotten.  

Again, just my 2 cents.
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mark lewis

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Reply with quote  #38 

How odd! I have had people "take a card" for decades on end and have never even once detected the slightest negative reaction to it. What I like about the procedure is that it involves the spectator. I must think while I am typing what I am doing to discourage this scenario that Aly mentions. 

1. Sometimes I have different ways of having the card selected such as the springing gag I use that can be seen in one of my videos. Or the side steal. Or having it selected behind my back. 

2. I often use the old gag where a card moves from side to side and you say "don't let me influence you in any way"

3. As I am reviewing the tricks that I do in my mind while I am typing I realise that it is all in the patter. I am saying interesting things when I have the cards selected. I don't just say "take a card". For example the Tipsy Trick in the Royal Road to Card Magic or the Triumph effect has the interest built in with the drunk man or the heckler story. You explain that someone chose a card and you get someone to do so to illustrate the point.

I also say things like "Whenever you see a magician he always says take a card. Well, I am supposed to be a magician so of course  you are supposed to take a card" This takes the sting out of it, if there is indeed a sting. Sometimes I say, "whenever you see a magician he always says take a card. I am no exception so take one out"  Years ago, I used to say " Doesn't it make you sick? Whenever you see a magician they always say, "take a card". It so boring when they do that" Then I paused and said to someone "take a card". It got quite a laugh! I don't do it any more. I should.

4. I just realise that I often use flourishes to get the card selected. Such as springing the deck in a long line on the table to get one selected. Or use the spread flourish where you squeeze the cards described in the Paul Le Paul book. 

 

I am doing all the above things without realising it until now. I thank Aly for helping me to recognise my own genius in these matters. To sum it up, if you make the selection of the card INTERESTING there should be no problem saying "take a card".

 

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Steven Youell

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Reply with quote  #39 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logan Five
I do like the idea of doing a double undercut followed by a in-jog shuffle.

Were it me, I would not use that more than once. The shuffle procedure is solid as it simply looks like a shuffle. However the Double Undercut is something that looks unique to a spectator. Although it should not be overlooked as a control, I don't think it should be used several times in a row.

And although I am not a fan of the Double Undercut, the jog shuffle control is very good if it's properly used. From what I've seen, Harry Lorayne is the MASTER of using the jog shuffle control and I learned if from "Close Up Card Magic".

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Magic-Aly

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Reply with quote  #40 
MARK WROTE: "I thank Aly for helping me to recognise my own genius in these matters."

You are most welcome, my good friend!
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Reply with quote  #41 
Marlo's Color Steal
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mark lewis

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Reply with quote  #42 

In actual fact I do believe it is a good procedure to vary your methods of control so you are not doing the same one all the time. Far safer from detection that way. You should really nominate a specific control for a specific trick and stick to it. 

Having said that I do not practice what I preach and constantly reprimand myself for not varying my methods of controlling cards a bit more often. However, I think the reason I am getting away with it is because like Harry, I use the injog almost exclusively, and it really is a terrific method of control. Very deceptive indeed.  However, I SHOULD vary my methods and maybe one day I will do something about it since I do so many take a card  tricks. Occasionally I will use the pass when a card is selected and the two methods of control in the Paul Le Paul book are excellent although they are technically variations of the injog anyway. I do use the bluff pass on the odd occasion with the card coming to the top rather than second top and also the backslip control described in the Royal Road to Card Magic. 

When I was a beginner I would use the double undercut and sometimes the corner crimp key card to control the card and it worked quite well until I learned the injog and then those moves came to an end. 

I just realised that in my trade show act when I do Now You See It from the Royal Road I don't actually use an injog. I use a simple key card. I must say I feel quite pleased that at least here I am not repeating my injog control twice in a row. In fact in my trade show act I only do the injog once. I feel quite proud of myself.

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SpareTopChange

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Reply with quote  #43 
Wow, what an interesting thread!  (And who would've guessed from the subject?)

For those of you who use the bluff pass or the bluff bluff pass, what would you do if you got called out on it?  You're not allowed to say "but that never has happened!".  There are some sharp hecklers out there, and it *could* happen.  I'm wondering how you would respond.
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mark lewis

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Reply with quote  #44 

But that has never happened! Not once in the over fifty years or so I have been using it! 

If it did I would turn the deck face upwards and shuffle them overhand keeping the select carded in place. I would say, "You must be imagining it". I would then turn the deck face down run three cards on top and shuffle off and bring this back to the top with the injog. I would then show the top three cards and say "is it there" They would say "no". I would bury them in the middle. Then I would show the bottom three card and say "is it here" They would say "no". So you can claim the card is lost in the deck. Of course it will now be back on top where  you wanted it in the first place. If they still make a fuss and demand they shuffle the deck themselves by now after all this fuss you would have glimpsed the card, openly cut it to the middle and let the person shuffle to their heart's content. Since you now know the card you can find it any way you want. 

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SpareTopChange

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Reply with quote  #45 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark lewis

But that has never happened! Not once in the over fifty years or so I have been using it! 

If it did I would turn the deck face upwards and shuffle them overhand keeping the select carded in place. I would say, "You must be imagining it". I would then turn the deck face down run three cards on top and shuffle off and bring this back to the top with the injog. I would then show the top three cards and say "is it there" They would say "no". I would bury them in the middle. Then I would show the bottom three card and say "is it here" They would say "no". So you can claim the card is lost in the deck. Of course it will now be back on top where  you wanted it in the first place. If they still make a fuss and demand they shuffle the deck themselves by now after all this fuss you would have glimpsed the card, openly cut it to the middle and let the person shuffle to their heart's content. Since you now know the card you can find it any way you want. 


Wow, great answer.  Showing the top three cards is a nice touch.

And it is pretty amazing that it hasn't happened in the whole 50 years you've been using it (even though I wasn't going to allow that answer.) [smile]
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Magic-Aly

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Reply with quote  #46 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark lewis

But that has never happened! Not once in the over fifty years or so I have been using it! 

If it did I would turn the deck face upwards and shuffle them overhand keeping the select carded in place. I would say, "You must be imagining it". I would then turn the deck face down run three cards on top and shuffle off and bring this back to the top with the injog. I would then show the top three cards and say "is it there" They would say "no". I would bury them in the middle. Then I would show the bottom three card and say "is it here" They would say "no". So you can claim the card is lost in the deck. Of course it will now be back on top where  you wanted it in the first place. If they still make a fuss and demand they shuffle the deck themselves by now after all this fuss you would have glimpsed the card, openly cut it to the middle and let the person shuffle to their heart's content. Since you now know the card you can find it any way you want.



Yes, very good; this has certainly turned out to be an interesting, thought-provoking and useful thread!

The procedure of glimpsing the card. Mark, is a great fail-safe device and is consistent with the advice given in the Hopkins book you recommended sometime ago, which I picked up: "Outs, Precautions and Challenges." 

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Steven Youell

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Reply with quote  #47 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic-Aly
The procedure of glimpsing the card. Mark, is a great fail-safe device and is consistent with the advice given in the Hopkins book you recommended some time ago, which I picked up: "Outs, Precautions and Challenges."

The Hopkins book always struck me with the impression that it assumed an adversarial relationship between the performer and the audience. Not uncommon for those days, but perhaps it’s time we evolved from that approach.

I have a different approach that some here might find useful. I’ve been using it for 40 years (since High School) and teaching it for 25 years.

Here’s part of it:

Always glimpse the selection. Always. If you control the card with a Side Steal, glimpse the card. Use a Bluff Pass? Glimpse the card anyway. Prevent trouble before it happens. Be Proactive, not reactive.

This idea of always glimpsing the selection along with a cohesive system of strategies that bring it to the level of being bulletproof was published in my lecture notes Weapons of Mass Destruction. The system is called Proactive Control and will almost completely eliminate the possibility of failing in these types of tricks.

Note: Proactive Control requires a few more essential elements that have to be used in order to take full advantage of it and I’d rather not write up the entire thing here because I’m rewriting the entire piece.

If anyone is interested, they can track down a set of the above mentioned notes and read all about it. OR you can wait for the updated version which should be published in a couple of months.


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mark lewis

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Reply with quote  #48 

Alan Alan once complained to me, "you are looking for the outs before the trick has even gone wrong!" Perhaps he was right but I like to keep alert when working. 

However, as a result of this thread I have been wondering why I have never been caught with the bluff pass. After analysing the matter I think I know why. And I am using the method where the card comes to the top, not the second from the top. I think the secret (and I am not sure why it is the secret) is that I ask them point blank, "how far down do you think the card is in the pack?" after doing the move. I suppose I want to make sure they have been fooled and are not just being polite. Unfailingly they say, "in the middle". Somehow that psychologically confirms in their mind that everything is hunky dory because THEY said it was! A bit like the Piano Card Trick. Here you say, "So each pile has an even number of cards in it. Right?" and I wait until they say "yes". Then I say, "So if I put this odd card on one of the even piles it would make that pile,,,,,?" then I hesitate slightly to give them time to say "odd". 

The psychology here is that THEY confirm the facts themselves not me. Same psychology in the bluff pass. I have always said a good magician should learn to manipulate the people not the cards. Every magician should learn to be a shrewd psychologist in order to improve his work.

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Magic-Aly

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Reply with quote  #49 
STEVEN YOUELL WROTE: "The Hopkins book always struck me with the impression that it assumed an adversarial relationship between the performer and the audience."

Perhaps such a relationship does occur at times, but it is usually when an adversarial audience member makes it that way, so it is best to be prepared if it happens.  Personally, I very rarely encounter any problems that I would consider advkrsarial  but there is good advice in Hopkins book that has nothing to do with anything adversarial, but more to do with precautions, such as when control of a card might be lost; hence,the name, "Outs, Precautions and Challenges."  There are also some good psychological pointers in the book.



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mark lewis

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Reply with quote  #50 

The Hopkins book is a FANTASTIC source! I studied it avidly when young. It went out of print for many, many years and I was delighted when it came back again. For a mere $6 in my local magic shop!

I have never encouraged an adversarial relationship with my audience but in the real world you are going to encounter trouble sooner or later. And you have to be able to handle it. Al Goshman once told me "Slydini couldn't handle trouble". There are ways of discouraging trouble by charming people and other psychological tricks but you are still going to get challenges and encounter difficulties and I don't necessarily mean hecklers. Tricks go wrong and you have to somehow get out of trouble. The Hopkins book will tell you how to do that and I highly recommend it. It is not a well known book and you may not have heard about it. Well, you have now. Get it. In fact you can't afford not to get it. A mere $6? 

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