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kkaiser343

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Reply with quote  #1 
really trying to get a nice smooth DL.. can some people point me in the right direction.. or share some helpful tips..
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EVILDAN

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Reply with quote  #2 
Practice your pinky count for the set up.
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Gareth

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Reply with quote  #3 
Racherbaumers booklet Lipstick Traces at his website here. http://realworknow.com/
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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVILDAN
Practice your pinky count for the set up.


What he said.
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Harry Lorayne

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Reply with quote  #5 
    Wish I could do a pinky count!
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Intensely Magic

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVILDAN
Practice your pinky count for the set up.


My pinky count stinks, but I'm still trying to teach it to these old joints.

I will say, though, that I got more help from a David Williamson DVD than anywhere else, but I can't recall which one. It may have been on the "Farm" one.

i/m


Edit: It's in Vol 4 of Ridiculous. There are separate sections for the pinky count and the double lift. Priceless!

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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #7 
Marlo's Hit Double Lift is still a good one. No get ready. 

If I have time, I'll make a quick video demo.

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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #8 
The Scarne video posted in another thread shows a nice Hit style DL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=WbTvDP8Sa6E

look around 4:18

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Chi Han

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Reply with quote  #9 
Giobbi is fond of saying "amatuers take chances, professionals take breaks" (or words to that effect).  Something you might find helpful is getting a break before your double, but don't immediately do the double after getting the break.  Create some time misdirection, talk, move your hands.  For some reason I want to recommend the Flip-Up double from Rim Shots, although I'm not sure it directly addresses your question of 'smoothness'.

TBH, I think almost every double can be a very 'smooth' double, but you need both good instruction and a LOT of practice.  Have fun!
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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #10 
Mike, I've never been able to get a hit double to consistently hit. Wish I could; a personal limitation no doubt, but not something I want to test under fire. I find the pinky count get-ready a simple thing. I can consistently ready one, two, or three cards and flip 'em right over on the deck. Looks the same regardless. I'd love to see a vid if you do scare up the time!

I also use Derek Dingle's DL, as described by Richard Kaufman, but having originally misunderstood the instructions, my "version" does not perfectly replicate Dingle's. But it works and works well. 

Harry, I know you eschew pinky counts, but for some of us they are workhorses!

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Harry Lorayne

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Reply with quote  #11 
 I don't eschew them, Av, I can't do them!
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kkaiser343

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Lorayne
    Wish I could do a pinky count!


Harry...you are the master here..what advice can you share..
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Harry Lorayne

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Reply with quote  #13 
   Re: what, kkaiser343?  Re: double lifts/turnovers?  I taught the method I use way back in Close-Up Card Magic and still use that most of the time. Teach that and another handling or two in THE MAGIC BOOK - and in one of my books (too lazy to look it up) I teach my Kick Double Lift. And, in my Ambitious Card Routine I do use a "count" to set for the double turnover but it's a thumb count at deck's outer-left corner - not a pinky count which I really can't do.
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Steven Youell

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Reply with quote  #14 
There is no need to get a break to do a smooth double turnover-- although there's certainly nothing wrong in doing so. I suggest you check out Ron Bauer's Two Card Turnover Technique. No breaks, triples and doubles at will with 100% Accuracy.
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Steven Youell

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Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chi Han Yeo
Giobbi is fond of saying "amateurs take chances, professionals take breaks" (or words to that effect).

It's not one or the other. There are plenty of DL Techniques that are 100% which do not require a break. Flailing that quote about gives beginners the idea that there are not. Thus, the quote is not only fallacious, it's misleading in a very big way.

I use more than one DL-- some require a break and some don't...

Does that make me an amateur?

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Will Jung

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Reply with quote  #16 
I'm a strong advocate for pinky counting as well. I've been working on doing it without any signs of stress on my hands so even when people burn my hands, the move is even less noticeable. 

I learned the Strike Double years ago which I used a lot before my pinky count got better. Basically a breakless double which requires you to "feel" for the edge of the two cards. Really hard to explain in context. 

Besides recommending these techniques, one thing I've done is to make my double lift "light." I (try to) turn the cards over with a very light touch because it seems more natural. Jamy Ian Swiss's "Dissertation On The Double Lift" in his "Devious Standards" book talks about making the double as natural as laymen would do it. He went on to experiment that when he asked laymen to turn the top card of the deck over, he noticed it resembled nothing like the double lift that we usually do (lifting from the side), but rather, they lift from the back. I won't go as far as to trying to adjust my double based on his experiments (which I believe are still quite useful for studying purposes), but I think everybody, laymen or magician, has a certain way they do their double. As you refine your technique, you'll adjust your fingers to where YOU see fit. Until that time comes, continue to do it over and over again, but with every repetition, find something that you can do "better" next time, rather than mindlessly repeating it. 

Hope this helps a bit buddy. 
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Chi Han

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Youell

It's not one or the other. There are plenty of DL Techniques that are 100% which do not require a break. Flailing that quote about gives beginners the idea that there are not. Thus, the quote is not only fallacious, it's misleading in a very big way.

I use more than one DL-- some require a break and some don't...

Does that make me an amateur?


Agreed, hence why at the bottom of my post I put that I think any double can be a smooth double. But the gentleman is asking for tips, not a definitive guide to the double. The double I use when performing has no break or get ready, not that I am a professional. I was suggesting the use of a break because I think doubles with breaks are easier to learn do 'smoothly' than those without. I wanted to quote someone else who thought so.
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DJ

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Reply with quote  #18 
I've found this download to be helpful, especially when you can't decide what double turnover fits you. From memory, he goes over many double turnovers such as the Instantaneous (strike), Vernon, Stuart Gordon, and Knockout. He also gives tips on the doubles as well as retaining breaks. Might be worth checking out. It's a part of a larger set of downloads/DVDs called Foundations (what i purchased) so you can save some money if you are interested in the other sleights he teaches.

https://store.theory11.com/products/double-lift-jason-england


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MagicTK

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Reply with quote  #19 
I think Will brings up some fascinating ideas here.  I especially like studying how other people might flip a card.  I've never read Jamy Ian Swiss's info on the Double, but I wholeheartedly agree on making it look natural.

I always support/enforce the idea of making a move look natural.  Even if it truly isn't a natural move, if you handle the cards/coins/etc in a manner that feels like "it just doesn't matter", like "this is just how everyone does it" (even if it's not), then I find that less attention is drawn to that moment.  Also, a little misdirection can help, like looking up at that moment to draw their eyes upward.  Also as Chi Han Yeo suggested, just creating a little time gap between the get-ready and actually flipping over the cards is very useful.

I have studied how different people flip over a single top card.  There are many variations, especially in people from different cultures.  Some common ones are as if getting ready to deal, they kind of push off the top card and grab by the outer corner to flip it over.  Or slight push off to the side and grab the card by the side to flip it over.  Or hold the deck in dealing position, then with the other hand, slide the top card off from the back and flip it over basically end-over-end.

I used to practice a lot just doing a multiple push-off of the top two cards, then when there's just enough available to catch with the finger on my other hand, do the flip.  Kind of like a strike double, but doing the push-off then strike.  However, I haven't practiced it as much in recent years, so it's less smooth.

My most common methods are:
1) With my left hand down at my side, I push off the top few cards, then feel with my pinky to get the break, then pull all the cards square again.  If you were to see it, it would be totally exposed and look sloppy, but I do it as I'm just having conversation with them, so they aren't even focused on the cards.  After I get that break, then I slightly push over with my left thumb so the cards move together, then grab them toward the upper 1/3 of the outer long edge with my right index finger.  This is the same as if I were to push off a single card to flip it over.

2) I also like to mimic the method of sliding the top card off from the back of the deck while holding in mechanics/dealer grip.  When I do this, I actually start with a slight bevel of the deck by pushing the top cards back with my left fingers, then with my thumb, I grab the top card with the part of the thumb near the crease of the first joint, then grab the next card with the thumb skin about 1/8" farther down (toward the tip of my thumb).  Then I flip the cards over end-over-end and lay them down.
2a) After getting the two cards rather than flip end for end, I place my right pointer on the middle of the back of top card and grab the short ends with my thumb and middle finger.  Then I slide all my fingers to the left side of the cards and pivot the cards on my left finger tips to either just pick up the cards or to flip then slide the face up double onto the top of the deck.  It just depends on what I want or need to do.

I usually always flop the cards rather than pinch them and set them down.  The pinching and setting down doesn't look natural to me, even looks suspicious.


I have no idea if these methods are in print or not.  This is just stuff I came up with from experimenting with as many ways to do a double as I could.
If anyone thinks this is sharing too much method, let me know, and I will edit the post to not mention the methods and put them in The Session Room.

Hope something helped.  Sorry about the long post.

Tom

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Intensely Magic

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Reply with quote  #20 
I consider David Williamson the finest magic performer in the world. My opinion hasn't changed in over 20 years.

It's amazing, with his talent, how careful he is. He makes a point that he NEVER does a double lift without a break and explains, in detail, why. He is convinced that there are no breakless methods that are foolproof . That's good enough for me.

I know there are other opinions.

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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Intensely Magic
I consider David Williamson the finest magic performer in the world. My opinion hasn't changed in over 20 years. It's amazing, with his talent, how careful he is. He makes a point that he NEVER does a double lift without a break and explains, in detail, why. He is convinced that there are no breakless methods that are foolproof . That's good enough for me. I know there are other opinions.


Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel, and what I was expressing in my earlier post. The last thing I want is to "miss" or fumble when attempting a strike or hit double under fire. I love Steve Freeman's Time Machine. It requires two flawless double turnovers to be convincing and magical, and for me at least, there's no good reason to take chances. A preparatory break alleviates all tension and uncertainty. And that is the precise reason I worked to develop my pinky count. (Long, slender fingers sometimes come in handy.)  

Ultimately I think consistent doubles are 30% practice and 70% confidence. I have watched well-known and respected professionals do doubles that made me cringe because of the unnatural nature of the action used, but were easily accepted by lay audiences. Why? Because the magicians confidently executed the sleights and moved right along with their scripts.  
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Intensely Magic

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Vinson

I have watched well-known and respected professionals do doubles that made me cringe because of the unnatural nature of the action used, but were easily accepted by lay audiences. Why? Because the magicians confidently executed the sleights and moved right along with their scripts.  


I would love to discuss / debate this at some point. I agree that confidence and a well executed script cover a myriad of sins, but I've long held that WAY less gets by an intelligent layman than many magicians think. Way less.



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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #23 
I think every 14 teen year old kid who has played around with card tricks/magic knows what a dl is, and that it's way over done today.

With that said, I use the flip & slide method that is in Gary Oulette's booklet Finger On The Card.

Just my observation..that's all,
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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Intensely Magic


I would love to discuss / debate this at some point. I agree that confidence and a well executed script cover a myriad of sins, but I've long held that WAY less gets by an intelligent layman than many magicians think. Way less.


Well, I wouldn't mind talking about it either. I've actually had similar thoughts in the past, but at last concluded that since many of the magi who regularly get away with odd-looking doubles, that they must have somehow transcended the need to execute more natural-looking lefts or turnovers. Otherwise wouldn't they strive to improve?

So... Are audiences just being polite? Are some magicians self-deluded and self-immunized against constructive feedback? Do said magi actually believe that their doubles are impeccably executed? Has no one along their journey kindly pointed out the unnatural nature of their method? 

Personally I aim for naturalness in context, and consistency of method. That's why I stick with two tried and true - for me - methods for affecting doubles and/or triples. And I constantly practice them so as to keep them sharp and prepared for real-world use.

And I don't disagree with Logan Five that DLs are generally overdone. I would say the same thing about Elmsley Counts. Thing is, so many wonderful tricks depend on one, the other, or both. Have we stopped thinking too soon? Are we swirling in some vortex where going along is easier than swimming against the current? I will say that I am unwilling to stop performing Twisting the Aces, even though the effect requires both moves - The routine is just too sweet!  

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Steven Youell

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chi Han Yeo
I was suggesting the use of a break because I think doubles with breaks are easier to learn do 'smoothly' than those without.
Hey, that wasn't about you-- it was about the quote. And we should all agree that the one that's easier to learn is not always the best one to learn, right?


I suggest the OP give particular attention to Dai Vernon's Techniques and use that for his foundation.

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Steven Youell

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Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Intensely Magic
He is convinced that there are no breakless methods that are foolproof . That's good enough for me. I know there are other opinions.


That idea is based on the assumption that "foolproof" techniques exist. I don't beleive
they do. What counts is if a breakless technique consistently gives you the same amount
of reliability as techniques that use a break.

Having said that, although I'm a huge advocate of Bauer's Technique I have a variety of DL methods that I use. And so does Bauer.

I would suggest that the OP study the work of Vernon on the DL as a foundation and then move on to others as he sees fit.

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Steven Youell

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Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logan Five
I think every 14 teen year old kid who has played around with card tricks/magic knows what a dl is, and that it's way over done today.

And a competent Sleight of Hand performer could fool everyone of those kids with Double Lifts. I don't think it's the frequency of the DL that does harm, I think it's the way it's used that does harm. Example: using eight DL's in an Ambitious Card routine is a bad idea...

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culldavid

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Reply with quote  #28 
Something that i notice when most magicians do a DL is,when turning a double face down on top of the deck,they use the same hand to take the top card off the deck,i always use the hand that is holding the deck to thumb off the card,which is more natural i think.Another thing that makes the d.l. look better is that move where the turned over card ends up outjogged,i believe it belongs to Tamariz?
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Will Jung

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Vinson


Ultimately I think consistent doubles are 30% practice and 70% confidence. I have watched well-known and respected professionals do doubles that made me cringe because of the unnatural nature of the action used, but were easily accepted by lay audiences. Why? Because the magicians confidently executed the sleights and moved right along with their scripts.  


Bingo!

Do not forget guys....when we began our journey into this art, we forsook our "lay-eyesight" in exchange for the secrets of magic. What may seem "unnatural" to us may seem fine to a laymen. We won't ever know anymore, because we're no longer laymen! 

What truly IS "natural?" I think the answer lies in the eyes of the beholder. 
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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #30 
I put together a tutorial on Marlo's Hit Double Lift. Toward the end there's a story about what is "natural" that's amusing. Here's the link:

password: marlo7d





Mike
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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #31 
Thanks, Mike. I now think I understand my lack of consistency with the Hit Double Lift. It lies in the way I naturally hold the deck. My ring and little fingers lie against the far lower edge of the deck, and my thumb rests on the upper right quadrant of the top card. Watching your tutorial I have made what minor adjustments are necessary without warping my comfortable, familiar grip, and I can see where those tweaks allow me more consistency with the double. Since the hit looks identical to the turnover I use with a pinky count assist, I am going to put in some practice time and add the Hit to my arsenal.

Again, thank you for the video and for the time you take to help out, teach, and coach here on the forum.

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luvisi

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Youell
There is no need to get a break to do a smooth double turnover-- although there's certainly nothing wrong in doing so. I suggest you check out Ron Bauer's Two Card Turnover Technique. No breaks, triples and doubles at will with 100% Accuracy.


FYI, Steven Youell's tutorial on Ron Bauer's TTT is on the card sleight tutorials DVD available at http://www.practicenotincluded.com/
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Blathermist

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Reply with quote  #33 

I can’t recall reading the Jamy Ian Swiss’s essay on Double Lifts, so I probably haven’t. But it’s hardly revelatory. Years ago and with no research at all I realised that laypeople do not handle cards in the same way that magicians do. Further than that, laypeople don’t handle cards in the same way that laypeople do. And even further than that, magicians don’t handle cards in the same way that (other) magicians do.

It’s obvious to anybody who’s ever watched/played a casual game of cards that people handle cards in their own sweet way. The one consistent factor is that there is absolutely nothing consistent in the way they handle cards. Even so-called serious card players have their own style.

Dai Vernon was a great advocate of being natural and I’m all for it. But what is Natural? Not just in regard to double lifts, but cards in general.

Will Jung succinctly makes this point this point a few posts back:

"I think the answer lies in the eyes of the beholder."

What generally causes problems with double lifts is is not so much the procedure—although there are some weird and wonderful affairs—as the fact that the magician makes a feature of it. Turning over the card(s) becomes an event in itself, rather than a means to an end. The end being the card revealed.

Regarding the Scarne Hit Double,mentioned here…..

http://www.themagiciansforum.com/post/video-of-john-scarne-doing-card-sleights-9303700?highlight=scarne

…..it’s interesting that he misses the hit twice.

And back with the theme, does anybody turn cards over like that in the "real world". Probably. How "natural" is it? I’ve seen similar turnovers from layfolk over the years, but nothing quite as precision-like as Scarne’s and Cardshark Quixote, who incidentally, doesn’t miss.

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Intensely Magic

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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blathermist

I can’t recall reading the Jamy Ian Swiss’s essay on Double Lifts, so I probably haven’t. But it’s hardly revelatory. Years ago and with no research at all I realised that laypeople do not handle cards in the same way that magicians do. Further than that, laypeople don’t handle cards in the same way that laypeople do. And even further than that, magicians don’t handle cards in the same way that (other) magicians do.........



Beautifully stated.

The more I'm around this strange little world, the more I become convinced that tension is the main enemy of natural magic. It's what makes people like David Williamson, Guy Hollingsworth, Bill Malone, Tom Wonder..... so effective, I think. Of course having talent and great chops doesn't hurt, but I believe it's what separates them.

Not as eloquently stated, but a point I think worth considering.

i/m  


PS At this stage of my life, your posts send me to the dictionary more often than I would like to admit. Although the definition of "revelatory" is somewhat intuitive, it was not a word with which I was familiar.


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Harry Lorayne

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Reply with quote  #35 
      The question asked is - what is "natural?".   Don't know if this fits here, but - I've written it soooo many times - when you're practicing a sleight do that same action without incorporating the sleight. Do the action a number of times until it's sorta' locked in your mind. And then - DO THAT ACTION INCORPORATING THE SLEIGHT MAKING IT LOOK EXACTLY AS WHEN YOU'RE NOT INCORPORATING THE SLEIGHT.  Seems to me that that makes it "natural" for YOU.

     Simple/obvious really. Turn over the top card, then turn it face down. Do that a few times. Now do your double turnover so that IT LOOKS JUST LIKE THAT.

      Example - going back decades ago - when Paul Curry originally showed me his Turnover Change (which I eventually taught in Close-Up Card Magic) I remember doing just that. Kept turning a tabled face-up card face down with one hand. Did it over and over again. And then started to do/practice the Curry Turnover Change - changing the tabled card as it was turned face down - and making it look JUST as when I turned it face down WITHOUT doing the change.

    
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Dorian Rhodell

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Reply with quote  #36 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logan Five
I think every 14 teen year old kid who has played around with card tricks/magic knows what a dl is, and that it's way over done today.

With that said, I use the flip & slide method that is in Gary Oulette's booklet Finger On The Card.

Just my observation..that's all,


I'm not sure that's entirely true. Sometimes yes...but not always. Ron Bauer got me at the GGG in San Francisco. I had no idea it took place. No tell, nothing. And at that time I had been doing magic around 30 years.

Best,

Dorian
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Michaelblue

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Reply with quote  #37 
The double lift that Harry Lorayne teaches is how Pop Haydn does it, he learned it in Close Up Card magic. He said so at a lecture[smile]
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EVILDAN

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Reply with quote  #38 
I was watching a card trick online performed by another faceless young kid. I don't know, maybe he aspires to be a hand model when he gets older.

So he's getting ready to do a double lift. How do I know? Because he pinky counts two cards. You see the back corners popping up, and then he grabs the double as if nothing was wrong.

I don't even know what else to say about this. I'm at a loss for words.

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Intensely Magic

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Reply with quote  #39 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVILDAN
I was watching a card trick online performed by another faceless young kid. I don't know, maybe he aspires to be a hand model when he gets older.

So he's getting ready to do a double lift. How do I know? Because he pinky counts two cards. You see the back corners popping up, and then he grabs the double as if nothing was wrong.

I don't even know what else to say about this. I'm at a loss for words.



I the Instagram World you get props for being able to do a pinky count, not fooling someone with a double lift.

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