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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #1 
In any of your routines. I know some that look down on it because it's easy to do and their concerned that they'll "get nailed" because it's so simple.

TIA

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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #2 
I find the force to be very deceptive. With just a bit of time misdirection, it flies by everyone as far as I can tell. Clearly not good for fooling magicians. But laypeople are totally taken in IMO.

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Michaelblue

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Reply with quote  #3 
I like it. I think the reason it flies by is because the spectator does the cutting.
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arthur stead

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Reply with quote  #4 
I use it and have never been called on it.  Like Mike said, with a little timing misdirection built in, it's a very handy force!
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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #5 
Yes. Raj Mahok's "Lean on Me" subtlety, as simple as it is, really seems to add to the deception. I also use John Bannon's in-hand variation, the Christ-Cross Force. A lot. Probably my most frequently used force as a matter of fact. 

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mac1054

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Reply with quote  #6 
Yes, it works for me! 
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MorrisCH

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Reply with quote  #7 
I don’t use this as much although I’ve never been called out with the force, I guess the reason I don’t use it is because I personally don’t find enjoyment performing that move, just like half pass, reverse faro or down under deal, if I don’t enjoy it Audiance won’t, although you can not deny it’s deceptiveness
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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #8 
Eugene Burger suggests not drawing attention to the cut as in "I'll mark the cut" as you put the upper part at an angle. Eugene suggested simply doing it without any comment. I think this is correct. Also, don't put one half deck at 90 degree with respect to the other. Just jog it a bit without comment and then talk to kill some time. 

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luigimar

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Reply with quote  #9 
John Bannon recently published an effect in the July 2018 Genii Magazine (Prophet Motive III) where he uses this, the cross-cut force, as part of the procedure. But the card to force is the bottom one of the top part (the part you lift to reveal the forced card at bottom) of the half deck (usually the card to force is the top card of the bottom half). This could also help hide what is happening...



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arthur stead

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Reply with quote  #10 
I like the John Bannon "in-the-hands" subtlety ... will be practicing and trying it out.
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Chi Han

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Reply with quote  #11 
I do it for a Kostya Kimlat routine where you tell the story of a king being murdered. I've never been busted.
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chris w

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Reply with quote  #12 
I've never been called on it, but I haven't used it a whole lot, either. The first time I saw it, it wasn't done particularly well and it didn't fool me. Even so, I didn't start yelling "Hey, that didn't fool me!"

I fear it's a more transparent ploy than many magicians imagine. Without the right affect, language, time misdirection, and context, I believe some not-insubstantial percentage of people will see through it but be too polite to say anything.
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Chi Han

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris w
I've never been called on it, but I haven't used it a whole lot, either. The first time I saw it, it wasn't done particularly well and it didn't fool me. Even so, I didn't start yelling "Hey, that didn't fool me!"

I fear it's a more transparent ploy than many magicians imagine. Without the right affect, language, time misdirection, and context, I believe some not-insubstantial percentage of people will see through it but be too polite to say anything.


I agree, but I don't think they'd be polite enough to gasp and say 'how did you do that?' (I hope). That's the tell if you fooled them.
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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arthur stead
I like the John Bannon "in-the-hands" subtlety ... will be practicing and trying it out.


I think you'll like it. You can force either the top or bottom card with ease. Done casually and on the off-beat, it is 100% undetectable. (80% of statistics are made up on the spot!) But seriously, I think you will find the move useful and versatile. Oh, and I have also discovered that the mechanics of the move allow for a pretty cool card control.

Av

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François Lagrange

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Reply with quote  #15 

Don't you think that Harry Lorayne’s effect HaLo Aces has a wonderfully simple and deceptive force. It takes place once you’ve tabled two packets and then start an Overhand Shuffle on the remaining half while asking the spectator to say stop whenever then want to. You then dropped the last two packets and your work is done.

It does not take a huge leap of imagination to adapt the Overhand Shuffle to force a card a la Cross Cut.

If you know HaLo Aces you’ll know what to do, otherwise you can download this free video by Liam Montier:  The Crossy Cutty Shuffle Force.

It’s very fooling and disarming. It won’t do, of course, if you need to preserve the whole deck order.

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Mbreggar

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Reply with quote  #16 
It’s a wonderful force. (Wasn’t that a movie??)
As Mike P said though, time misdirection is crucial. There are ways to disguise it too which makes it suitable even for a magician audience. Bannon’s Christ-Cross variation is a good example. Paul Wilson has a few examples in his second penguin lecture as well.
I have fooled magicians using the following method:
Force card is on the bottom. I use a bottom cutting breather so I can have the deck shuffled and cut. Then I have the spec deal cards off the top and stop when they want (or have them spell out their full name or birthdate. As long as they have dealt a third to half of the deck you are ok. They put the undealt talon angled on top. Time misdriect, and then lift at the cut to show the force card.
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EndersGame

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Reply with quote  #17 
John Bannon has done some good work on this force, especially in his Move Zero Vol 1 DVD (review link). 

The subtleties are very important, can make it quite convincing.

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MagicTK

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Reply with quote  #18 
I use it all the time.  As mentioned above, it can be very deceptive with a little misdirection/timing.

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Kevin

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Reply with quote  #19 
The Jerx did some kind of survey and the criss cross came in #1 out of about 8 forces, including the classic. I've never been caught using it, and it never fails.
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EndersGame

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin
The Jerx did some kind of survey and the criss cross came in #1 out of about 8 forces, including the classic. I've never been caught using it, and it never fails.


It's all about how it's presented and how you do it, e.g. a short delay or question before turning over the card.

Kevin, you've obviously got a great way of doing it - any tips you want to share about what helps make this work for you?

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Kevin

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Reply with quote  #21 
I just use some time misdirection. I like to have some clutter in front of me, have them cut and clear the stuff out if the way. "I need some room here...". Nothing earth shattering. I basically just do it the way it's taught in CC1.
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SpareTopChange

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Vinson
Yes. Raj Mahok's "Lean on Me" subtlety, as simple as it is, really seems to add to the deception. I also use John Bannon's in-hand variation, the Christ-Cross Force. A lot. Probably my most frequently used force as a matter of fact. 

Av

Where does he explain the in-hand variation?

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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpareTopChange

Where does he explain the in-hand variation?


Sorry for the delay, but I am just seeing this post. Let me check a couple of references and I will provide a reference shortly.

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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #24 
Okay, the earliest reference I found was in John's booklet, Six. Impossible. Things., published in 2009. You'll find the handling described in detail on pp 6 & 7. I believe that this booklet was incorporated into the big book High Caliber, in 2015, so the reference may be found there as well. Anyone with High Caliber that can verify?

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StevePR104

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Reply with quote  #25 
I agree totally with the idea of time misdirection.  If I'm doing "A Cunning Odyssey," from "The Magicians' LTD. Cookbook," it requires a criss-cross force.  I'll simply place the deck on the table and ask the spectator to cut about half of it off to the side.  Then, I pick up the lower half and use it to gesture to the other piles on the table, reminding people of what has happened to that point...then, and only then, do I place the packet on top of the tabled deck.  (sloppily angled, of course, and not at a 90 degree angle.)
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Mbreggar

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Reply with quote  #26 
Actually, the Cross Cut Force REQUIRES time misdirection to work.

Paul Wilson has some great ideas on this in his Penguin lecture (I think it’s his second one)
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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #27 
The Cross Cut Force, et al, exploits a cognitive bias known as inattentional blindness. 

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Mbreggar

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Reply with quote  #28 
... sez you...
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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbreggar
... sez you...


And not just me. Google the term and you will discover some pretty amazing examples of the phenomenon, including a curious example involving basketballs... Don't want to give away too much for anyone not already familiar with the study.

In the case of the Cross-Cut Force, or Bannon's Discrepancy City Display, we cleverly exploit the spectator's tendencies toward inattentional blindness by deflecting their attention sufficiently to render null their ability to recall certain details. Fascinating! A close cousin of inattentional blindness is change blindness, yet another quirk we magi exploit. I believe that Richard Wiseman has done some work on these effects.

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Mbreggar

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Reply with quote  #30 
Good stuff AV .... I was just being a pain...
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Blathermist

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Reply with quote  #31 

I don’t think the Cross Cut Force is quite as deficient in the fooling department as some would have it.

"Too simple, too direct, too bold. Too obvious. It won’t fool anybody," they wail.

Obvious…..whatever that means. A one-way forcing pack is (too?) obvious if the faces are displayed. So is a double faced card if both sides are displayed. Particularly if they’re displayed at the same time… although strictly speaking I don’t suppose both sides can be displayed at the same time. Similarly a copper/silver coin. And howsabout….well the beat goes on. Forever.

The problem, if it can be called such, is in the application. As always. And the answer, or solution, is in the application. As always. That is, how and where it fits in the routine; what comes before it, what comes after it and so on. And that applies to most (all?) sleights, moves, subtleties, procedures and whatnot.

Trundling through the book, Psychological Subtleties [3] by Banachek I came across some sensible chat about the Cross Cut Force, together with an application of the thing. Worth checking out.

I don’t use it every five minutes, but I do use it. The procedure is sound enough. Anybody who trembles at the thought can simply leave it alone.

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Blathermist

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Reply with quote  #32 

"Inattentional Blindness" and "Change Blindness" are useful terms (among many) for people such as Wiseman who spend their lives guessing at what makes people do this and not do that, without ever producing anything conclusive. Generally I find it interesting, but the sick bucket comes out when they start yammering about definitives.

Regarding the basketballs. Anthony, is the the Gorilla thing? An experiment that’s about as convincing as foot flying.

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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blathermist

"Inattentional Blindness" and "Change Blindness" are useful terms (among many) for people such as Wiseman who spend their lives guessing at what makes people do this and not do that, without ever producing anything conclusive. Generally I find it interesting, but the sick bucket comes out when they start yammering about definitives.

Regarding the basketballs. Anthony, is the the Gorilla thing? An experiment that’s about as convincing as foot flying.



Why so irascible? ;-)

Neuroscience is only just beginning to identify and categorize psychological phenomena that magicians have exploited for centuries. Science should never (well, mostly never) be about definitives, but rather models based on the best available evidence. As evidence mounts, the models are adjusted. Labels are merely convenient nomenclature that assist in organizing and peer review. 

Yes, it is the gorilla thing. And yes, it is convincing, but only to the extent that it illustrates the concept. 

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Gareth

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Reply with quote  #34 
Just to go back to the topic. The top people do the cross-cut in the top places. Ed Kwon uses it wonderfully in his beautiful Castle Act.

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Blathermist

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Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Vinson

Why so irascible? ;-) 

Av 

"Irascible"???

Moi???!!!

"What"???

I’ll freely confess to being an FQAB and an FQOG, but well, I do declare, you’ve got me there.

Irascible. Oh well.   [confused]  [bawl] [angel] [smile]

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Kingman

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Reply with quote  #36 
I have to admit to using it. I think there are times when it is perfect and with a few touches on it, like time misdirection and how the cards are handled it goes right by. Very nice utility and worth dissecting it to make it work for what you want, but don't treat it like a throw-away.
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EndersGame

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Reply with quote  #37 
The Ed Kwon performance at the Magic Castle (thanks Gareth!) is well worth watching (video link). 

The routine in question starts at exactly 4 minutes in - it's a lovely presentation.  Especially notice how Ed really uses a time interval to make the Cross Cut force completely convincing.

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wbausert

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Reply with quote  #38 
I use the criss-cross force often, especially when the setting makes use of a table/bar surface for other parts of a routine.  Time misdirection is essential.  One thing I especially like about this force is that the deck is in full view at all times in an aesthetically pleasing display with the magician nowhere near it.  So clean, no chance for funny business.  You can even have the spectator lift the top parcel of cards to see the forced card himself.

All the best,
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Kevin

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Reply with quote  #39 
In Jawdroppers 2, Magical Match, Harry uses this exactly how it should be used. Extremely good time misdirection.
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Blathermist

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Reply with quote  #40 
Jon Racherbaumer's Criss Crossings: Unleashing The X-Force is worth a look.

I meant to mention this previously, but I'm still only partically recovered from the "Irascible" moment.
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magicfish

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Reply with quote  #41 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin
In Jawdroppers 2, Magical Match, Harry uses this exactly how it should be used. Extremely good time misdirection.

Funny, I was scrolling to the end of this thread to mention Magical Match. You are spot on. The built in time misdirection is perfect.
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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #42 
Many times a simple recap of what has transpired so far is all the time misdirection needed. I'll bet that you could simply place the cut portion on top, get eye contact and say "Oh - you need to look at the card..." would work. I don't think that the amount of time needed for "misdirection" is more than five seconds. 

Mike
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Harry Lorayne

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Reply with quote  #43 

    One of my silly early childhood dead-end/ghetto expressions comes to mind - "Zah zeech his own".

 

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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #44 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Powers
Many times a simple recap of what has transpired so far is all the time misdirection needed. I'll bet that you could simply place the cut portion on top, get eye contact and say "Oh - you need to look at the card..." would work. I don't think that the amount of time needed for "misdirection" is more than five seconds.


Sounds about right. What we refer to as time misdirection is really just a form of distraction. It takes only a little bit of distraction to cause the human brain to jump tracks.

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