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Nathan_himself

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I'm currently working on an effect that has consumed all my creative energy. Without going into too much detail, the climax of the effect is that the spectator (with their eyes closed) correctly identifies what object in an envelope. The method I'm currently using uses dual reality, but still creates a moment of wonder for the spectator (not as strong as the rest of the spectators, but still strong).

While going over the effect with a friend, we got into a debate about dual reality. He believes that dual reality is the easy way out.  He thinks that it cheats the spectator out of the "magical moment". I personally love DR. I've been using this principle since I started in mentalism. 

So what are your feelings on it? I would love to hear multiple perspectives! 

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Chi Han

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Reply with quote  #2 
Pre-show work can be a fantastic resource if done well.

I'm sure there are stages of purity in magic, some would say only pure sleight of hand for instance, but for me magic exists in the mind of the spectators. How it gets there can be important, if for instance you could do the same effect without dual reality, it could be much stronger for everyone involved. Fir instance I wouldn't do most dual reality tricks with only 2 people. But sometimes this is impossible or has other trade offs.

I regard DR the same way I regard preshow work, gimmicked cards, and breather crimps. With great admiration, but not for me.
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Chris M

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Reply with quote  #3 
For professional workers in a stage setting I guess a good DR effect (one where the helper gets something good, even if not as good as the audience) is well worth it.

It falls, IMHO, into the same 'controversial but powerful' category as: pre-show, hot reading, instant stooging and normal stooging. If I was a working mentalist I'd likely use all of the above if I thought I could get a fantastic effect out of it.

Weirdly, I don't feel the same about magic and TV editing - but that's another discussion [smile]

However, given I am only a hobbyist who performs casually for small groups of people, most of whom will talk to each other immediately after (or during) an effect, and may have no problem with trying to deliberately mess up a trick or grab props or all that other 'real world hobbyist' stuff, I wouldn't touch DR with a barge pole - it would go down like a lead balloon! Lol [smile]. If I was a working walk-around or close-up mentalist it'd be the same issue, although less so. It seems, to me, that DR is really a stage only ruse.

Oddly, the same is not true in this casual environment of the other 'controversial' ploys - hot reading and stooging can work for casual stuff, if you are careful [smile]

I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on DR and the like, I'm suprised this thread didn't generate more input [smile]
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magicfish

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Reply with quote  #4 
What is Dual Reality?
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Chris M

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Reply with quote  #5 
Can we post methods here?
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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #6 
A duel reality effect is when your participant in an effect experiences an effect one way, and your audience experiences an effect in another way, and both the participant and the audience experiences something magical, or not.

One routine I used in the past is Doc Hilford's Perfect Mental Club Act which involved gimmicked playing cards and instant stooging, done like he say's to do it, it plays very strongly.

There is a routine in Kenton Knepper's book Mind Reading that has a decent duel reality effect in it that I am considering doing, but, I currently have a lot on my plate so to speak.

The instant stooging thing kinda borders on exposing the method, which I am not down with.

Nathan, do you work out of Silicon Valley here in California ?
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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #7 
Fish, think Tony Corinda's Powers of Darkness. Here's an example with Jay Marshall.
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El84

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Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by magicfish
What is Dual Reality?



In the Disney film Aladdin: The king of thieves. There is an earthquake during a wedding & the line. I thought the world was not suppose to move until the Honeymoon.
That is a Dual Reality line,  as children will not see it in the same way that an adult will.
Dual Reality is about perception & something being perceived in two different ways.
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luigimar

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Reply with quote  #9 
Two more examples of effects where they use DR, the 100th monkey (Chris Philpott) and Factory Blanks (Tom Stone).

---------------------------------------------

I think you would have to perform whatever effect you are doing (any DR effect) and see who gets the strongest effect, the spectator on stage or the rest of the audience. Then you would have to decide if you want to keep it in your show that way. Who matters the most? Single spectator or the rest of the audience? Both parties get a magical effect, but most likely one stronger than the other.

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Chris M

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Reply with quote  #10 
A thought occurred to me - wouldn't a strong DR reality effect be a good clip for a promo vid? That might be another reason for including one in a show. But these are considerations for the pro, not the casualist [smile]
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Nathan_himself

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Reply with quote  #11 
Logan, I wish I did! I'm currently in the southern United States.

Personally, I've used DR in almost every environment. The older I get, the more I become a fan of bold methods. When you are bold, sometimes you look like a real mind reader. 

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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #12 
Nathan,

There is a mentalist/hypnotist with the name of Nathan working out of Silicon Valley, just curious. I am about 95 miles north east of there. That would be a good market to hit up.

Logan Five
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Chris M

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Reply with quote  #13 
Nathan, have you ever tried DR in a casual environment, like when you have only a handful of spectators who all know each other? What was your experience of it?
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Nathan_himself

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Reply with quote  #14 
Logan, I really enjoy living in the southern united states. I'll probably never move too far away from the south. I enjoy it way too much!

Chris, I have! I think it depends on the effect and audience management/selection. For example, I do an effect that relies on an idea from Pablo Amira (Pareidolia). The idea uses dual reality but because of the scripting, it is impossible for the reality to collapse. The more on spectator says "He just showed me a picture of a stick figure", the more the audience will believe that I really implanted an idea into their mind. I use the same idea with my amnesia routine. 

It is important to remember that reality is just a consensus. When we, as performers, recognize this we can use dual reality in many situations. 

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Chris M

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Reply with quote  #15 
Cool! I'm not sure I'd risk the inevitable conversation that followed - but then again, I don't know the effect [smile]
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Nathan_himself

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Reply with quote  #16 
That's the beauty of the effect! The inevitable conversation solidifies the effect. It's all in the scripting! 
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Chris M

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Reply with quote  #17 
Nice [smile]
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El84

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris M
Cool! I'm not sure I'd risk the inevitable conversation that followed - but then again, I don't know the effect [smile]

 
Memories are not a single or simple  thing. First we have to experience them & remember them & then we need to store them & then we recall them multiple times & at each stage that memory changes even if only very very slightly. So at every stage we naturally damage the exactness of what happened in some way.
Google Cryptomnesia, Cognative Association, Missatribution & Conformation Bias as a start. They all play a very important part in memory & they all individually need more than a line or two here to describe. But if you give the person a reason to believe the idea was theirs & link it to a logical association that would make it theirs. Then they are normally very happy to misattribute it & will also often not even register  anything that contradicts that belief.
Also have a look at how people who have been to see a psychic, for example, behave. Often as humans we are happy to believe what we think we saw, very close to a event. Thus the views expressed are very much, "that was amazing,"  at the door as they leave. But give it a day or two & that starts to change with open minded people.

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Chris M

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Reply with quote  #19 
True, memories are slippery. [smile]

But the situation I was thinking of was something like this:

In a casual situation, I ask a spectator to write down a name/number/pet, or think of such, or whatever. The other spectators are close friends of his. I do the information reveal - it's clean, it's powerful, maybe I get other info too etc.

But if I effected this via typical DR (perhaps the spec could read or see things the others couldn't) then the immediate conversation would inevitably involve the spec telling the others what he read/saw/heard. Unless this exactly matches their experience I'm rumbled.

Think about, maybe, the Dunniger ploy, and what happens the moment the guy talks to his wife. I notice when encountering folks talk about DR that they say,sure, the family and friends of the spec might have info told them that lessens the effect, but it's worth it for the other hundred in the audience. But what if there is no other audience, only the people the spec talks too? That's my concern about DR in casual contexts.
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