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Rudy Tinoco

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Reply with quote  #1 
Hi Everyone,

I've been asked about the use of symbols in place of letters to hide the names of sleights.

I'm not entirely convinced that it's an effective way of accomplishing what some think that it does.

I don't want to make mountains out of mole hills and press the issue, but if most of us feel that the use of *#$@ and other such symbols don't serve much of a purpose, we can forget about it.

We're just laying the foundation of this forum so it's best to agree on it now. Getting a consensus from 200 people is a bit easier than waiting until we have thousands.

All those in favor of abandoning the $@#& method of communicating the names of sleights say, "aye". Majority rules and no negativity aimed that those who have a differing opinion! Make your opinion known. A simple yes or no will suffice.

Thanks!

Rudy

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EVILDAN

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Reply with quote  #2 
It depends if this is a public forum like the cafe where everything is searchable and public. 
I think the reason we use those symbols is so that people can't search the internet and find information on such terms. 

Of course, if we as performers stopped calling what we do by their trade names or marketed effect names, we'd have less of a problem. 

Example: I've seen magicians announce that they're working on a new book test that they hope to perform during their next show. Really? What the hell is a book test? I don't know, let's Google it. 
Oh.....that's what a book test is. 
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Robert Parris

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Reply with quote  #3 
I would say that it doesn't matter. Listen, if someone is into magic enough that they actually come to a magicians forum to troll through posts, then I'm sure they're trying to learn magic and already know a lot of the things were trying to cover up, or soon will. I don't believe a laymen is making it his mission to go out of their way to scour forums and discover and expose the secrets of magic. Besides you can find the secret to almost any card or coin trick on YouTube these days. I honestly believe it doesn't matter that much. I vote no.
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Waterman

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Reply with quote  #4 
 Perhaps there might possibly be a contingency of laypeople who are determined to search out the methods magicians use to entertain the masses. Assuming that this network of masked magician wannabes spend countless hours scouring the internet looking for ways to expose the art of magic come hell or high water then it is probably necessary for us magic folk use the secret code of^%$#  to cleverly hide our secret gimmicks and sleights. If this is indeed the case... lets continue to implement this method to &^%$ these exposers right where it hurts!

In all seriousness...I tend to agree with Robert. Even though I know what "turtles" are and what m^%%ed d#$k refers to, I can still be fooled badly by these devices when used by a competent magician. Many of the students I teach have received magic kits with TTs, c%ps and b^%ls, Sv#$%li decks, and li$%ing rings. I am still able to use these props (sometimes the very props that come with the magic kit!) to fool them. Just my 2 centavos.



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Robert Toomer

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Reply with quote  #5 
 I do not think that many laymen come to a magic forum to learn magic-maybe I'am wrong about this but from what I read over the past 2 days most people found out about this site from Harry Lorayne, so they must be on his mailing list. From what I see on you tube many magic effects are being exposed there and most laymen would go there instead. If people are sincere about magic they will take the effort to really learn it.  After all you can go to any library. Just my 2 cents worth.[cool]
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Craig Logan

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Reply with quote  #6 
I agree with Robert. The effort to read through a Wizard forum is not likely considering the mere curious can get their answers from Youtube. I don't want to seem careless about our secrets, but if one is curious enough to venture onto a forum like this, will p@!ming a card stop them?

My vote is no ^%$@%#@^, but that's just me.

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SamLowrysDream

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Reply with quote  #7 
Aye. Let's loose those $#%*ing things.
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Robert Parris

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Reply with quote  #8 
Sorry Robert, what I meant by that statement is that if someone comes to or stumbles upon this forum I believe it will be because they are a practising magician or in the process of learning magic so searching a magic 'term' might bring them here.  I can't see a laymen being interested enough to go out of their way to search out our secrets. Besides, there are many more sources online than this forum where they could find that info regardless. I also agree with the sentiment that regardless whether someone knows the secret or not, if an effect is done well it's still a mind blower. For example I could watch David Roth's 'Tuning Fork' effect all day and still smile like a school kid even though I know the method. It's in the presentation, patter and skill.
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MatthewOlsen

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Reply with quote  #9 
I am in favor of getting rid of the lame attempts to hide names of sleights.  Many of the words we try to conceal are vague enough that no one not versed in magic would know what we are talking about.  As for the others that we worry so much about like "palm" or "double lift"  are either already in most layman's vocabulary, like palm, or vague enough that they will only realize what we're talking about in context of how we use the word.  And if someone is reading that closely what makes them any different from any other aspiring magician?  Every beginner magic book has those phrases and now days more beginners are going to youtube and forums to learn instead of reading books.  Those who want to just discover the way a trick is done go to youtube because that takes almost no effort.  Keep in mind the people that are really interested in how effects are done are halfway to wanting to learn how to do a couple tricks themselves.  In other words a budding magician.

So let's relax.  The more people are interested in magic, even if only to learn how things are done, the more magic is appreciated as an art form and our audience base increases.  The best defense against the know it all spectator is to be really good at what you do.
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Rudy Tinoco

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Reply with quote  #10 
Thanks fellas. I appreciate the f#@$*ck [smile]
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EVILDAN

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Reply with quote  #11 

So what about cursing? Can we drop F bombs left and right. 
I was a sailor in the Navy and pretty much everything was a curse word. 
I even learned how to drop F bombs in the middle of the word as in "is this going to happen sometime to"f-ing"day?"
Or do we need to creatively drop F bombs and type in (insert expletive here)? 

I'm fine either way. 

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Rudy Tinoco

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Reply with quote  #12 
I'l like to keep things as PG as possible. In fact, I kindly asked someone to change their username because it was x-rated.

How about this? Can we all agree that if you hear the word on BBC's Kitchen Nightmares, it's fair game to say it here? [smile]

It's amazing what people can say on TV these days.

Thanks for asking, EvilDan.

Rudy


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tommyellison

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Reply with quote  #13 
No more "^%$@%#@^"

thats my vote.

As for language, I can hear all I need in my day to day work as a contractor. The less the better....  IMHO and FWIW.... YMMV

Tommy

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mark lewis

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Reply with quote  #14 
As a psychic reverend and holy man of the cloth I cannot possibly approve of bad language. And even worse than using it here I am horrified to see "performers" using it on stage. I don't care how good you think you are the second you swear on stage is the second you are a bad magician.
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Barry Allen

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Reply with quote  #15 
Agree 100%.

If a forum exists to help those with a genuine interest in magic, then abbreviations such as DL (or @*#%) will possibly do little to assist those new to our art. We may presume at times that people's knowledge levels are higher than they actually are.

Anyway, back to practicing with my Coin [ [wink]
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EVILDAN

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark lewis
As a psychic reverend and holy man of the cloth I cannot possibly approve of bad language. And even worse than using it here I am horrified to see "performers" using it on stage. I don't care how good you think you are the second you swear on stage is the second you are a bad magician.


I wouldn't say you're a bad magician, but you definitely put yourself on a different shelf.
My wife and I NEVER go blue in our show. We don't even do any slightly off-color or suggestive material.

I cringe when I see magicians and hypnotists start to lean this way especially in school performances.


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Spinooch81

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Reply with quote  #17 
I agree with the majority on here. I never understood why people go to great lengths to hide the sleights, moves and names on a forum specifically for Magicians. I have been performing magic for 25 years and I still can't figure out what some people are trying to say with all of their #$%*@. If someone is looking through these posts, they are either a Magician or curious enough to want to become a Magician. No need to hide individual words (or letters of words).
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Deckster

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Reply with quote  #18 
Be direct, succinct and honest.  Abbreviate sleights if they are conventional abbreviations, but name them, not disguise them. Get to the gold of the issue/subject/thought as briefly as possible and don't worry about divulging secrets.  This forum can be instructive without being detrimental to magic, quite the opposite, it can elevate.
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stuartp

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Reply with quote  #19 
I think this is a great topic for conversation and debate. I agree with many of the proceeding posts insofar as I don't think that the ^%#}{* characters are necessary. I do not think that the causal spectator will come to a magician's forum to learn methods and secrets and anyone with the smallest amount of basic knowledge can figure out what the disguised letters are. I think we are creating a code for ourselves that most can decipher. I do not think that wholesale revelation of secrets is appropriate, but that is not what we are talking about. For the most part, even if we don't know every intricacy of a method, we will know if a trick it is based on a sleight or if it uses a marked deck or an invisible thread reel. I am ok with stating the obvious so long as it does not reveal a secret or put the creator in a position where they lose customers.
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luigimar

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Reply with quote  #20 
I go with no symbols, just use the regular names.
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Reply with quote  #21 
I think it becomes a hindrance when someone uses Symbols and someone ask what the word is and the person refuses to tell them, much of what happens on the Cafe
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Mr. Danny

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Reply with quote  #22 
Aye!
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Blathermist

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Reply with quote  #23 

"Don’t swear boy, it shows a lack of vocabulary."

Alan Bennett: Forty Years On

 

I’ve also worked with people who were quite creative when it came to saying, for example: "I don’t under-flipping-stand." One in particular was out-flipping-standing. But never in mixed company.

Incidentally, feel free to substitute anything at all for "flipping".

 

I take the view that if, on the very rare occasions I attempt a spot of DIY, I hit my thumb with a hammer, then "Flipping Flips that smarts" is acceptable. Otherwise, no.

If anyone feels feel the need to swear in public, then a refresher course is required. The English language is too rich for this kind of carry on.

And for anyone who thinks it adds something, well, yes, it certainly does.

Just saying. Horses for coarses.

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damianjennings

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVILDAN

Example: I've seen magicians announce that they're working on a new book test that they hope to perform during their next show. Really? What the hell is a book test? I don't know, let's Google it. 
Oh.....that's what a book test is. 


not very useful results in the uk

book test


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damianjennings

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Reply with quote  #25 
definitely an aye from me. 
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Rc4mag

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Reply with quote  #26 
I say "aye", abandon the $@#& method of communicating the names of sleights.
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Blathermist

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Reply with quote  #27 
I abandoned it long ago. I have enough trouble trying to remember passwords with upper/lower/*%$ "security" codes without trying to learn to learn a new language in order to confuse/deter people who aren't really interested.
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Bomber

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Reply with quote  #28 
I agree with the majority & am fine with abandoning the symbols. I never have felt it was a very effective means of concealing methods.
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zhrollofan

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Reply with quote  #29 
One more in favor of just spelling things out.

But common abbreviations are fine - TT, DL, that kind of thing.
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Rudy Tinoco

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Reply with quote  #30 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zhrollofan
One more in favor of just spelling things out.

But common abbreviations are fine - TT, DL, that kind of thing.
I agree!

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Harry Lorayne

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Reply with quote  #31 
    When writing you can use un-common abbreviations if you've previously established them. As one example - in a book (or two) of mine I teach an idea I call Reverse To Position (RTP) - the first time I mention that title, near top of the item, I put (RTP) right after it, as I just did. That's it. Then later on in the item, even a page or two later, I can write, "Now do the RTP move..." etc., and of course, the reader knows exactly what I'm talking about. (I hope!) And I can continue to use that abbreviation throughout the item, or the next item.
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thesmurfman

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Reply with quote  #32 

Aye!

In today's world, there are already enough open sources to find the information. The people who are searching here are people who are already interested. There is no point in hiding the names that make searching harder

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helimagic

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Reply with quote  #33 
I also vote to not use the symbols

Respectfully

Wm. Scott Anderson
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