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Reply with quote  #1 
So I am now about 90 minutes and 32 seconds into Xavior Spade's At The Table Lecture and he was talking about how he will happily do really knacky moves in performance/restaurants if that is what he thinks is the best way forward. What are the knackiest moves you would do in performance and how do you use them in your routines (or how have their creators used them) to justify using those specific sleights? I myself agree that if the "best" version (most magical or however you prefer to define it) requires a knuckle buster then it should be used, but it isnt necessary if the same thing can be reproduced with a move that doesn't want to make you burn your cards on a skewer.
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Michaelblue

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Reply with quote  #2 
i don't know that i do much in the way of knacky, unless you include the pinky count. There are, of course, easier ways to do a double lift, but since i practiced at it for so long, and since it works, i do it.

I also do a coins across with classic palming in both hands, which is knacky as hell in my left hand. But i cover the unnatural look of my left hand with a quick gesture with my right hand. I won't bore you with details, but it's 4 coins (or so it seems) and it's based on David Williamson's Cross Eyed Coins Across.
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BottomDeal

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Reply with quote  #3 
There's plenty of knacky moves in card magic (I think Xavior does the Ambitious Riser better than anyone I've ever seen - not that I've seen everyone who can do it do it) that you could argue clean up an effect. Earnest Earick seem to have made a life time study of cleaning up moves and routines with much cleaner, yet more difficult alternatives. I feel like there's a risk reward ratio that needs to be considered. The Convincing Control in it's original iteration works fine, but there's many variations now that are much, much cleaner... but only to those who KNOW the original Convincing Control!  
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Reply with quote  #4 
I agree BottomDeal about the amount of knacky moves in card magic and about how well Xavior can do the ambitious riser - his short wave transpo using the move is something else.

Michaelblue when you are practicing the classic palm with coins, would you use the overpractice method of practicing by palming 4/5 coins instead of the number that you need to typically palm? I think it was David Roth that did that, and Shin Lim does it for palming and the snap change (and I'm sure other moves too)
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DJ

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Reply with quote  #5 
Some time ago I purchased Tony Chang's Sandwiches which contains quite a few knacky moves (See link below). There are some points in the routines where a knacky move is used but if you fail it there is an out.  While I haven't gotten the routine to the point where I would perform it for others, the fact that there is an out should the move fail gives me more comfort trying to pull it off. 





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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #6 
I talked to Tony Change a while back about his methodology. He visualizes what he wants his audience to see and then figures out a way to make that happen. Often this involves what you might call "knacky moves." He practices until these "knacky moves" look perfect. 

He had shown me a routine that looked awesome. When he was about to show it to someone else, he told me to get down and look at the handling from below. It was crazy! Cards were moving in and out and spinning around etc. But from the top none of this was visible. Excellent dexterity combined with a super practice ethic = invisibility. 

When I was young I'd learn new moves and practice my ass off. Now, I'm finding that my tool box has enough tools that I know how to use well. I'm working more on presentation these days. I am attracted to new cool moves but am finding that I'd rather spend my time elsewhere viz. routines and presentations. Do I really need a new way to control a card to top or bottom?

Advice for the younger set -> Go for it. Push magic forward in both method and concept. I see that happening all around me. I've quoted this before but one more time: Daryl and I were watching Garrett Thomas quite a while back. He looked at me and said, "Magic is in good hands." That says it all.

Mike
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Michaelblue

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Reply with quote  #7 
Synapse--i should try that with the left hand. That sounds cool. 
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James Sievert

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Reply with quote  #8 
Awe struck.
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Intensely Magic

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Reply with quote  #9 
Approximately a hundred years ago, or so, I attended a convention in Atlanta, I believe, where Paul Harris was the featured performer. This was obviously before Paul disappeared into the woods to commune with bears and eat berries.

There was an "extra charge" seminar with Paul for the princely sum of $25 (actually rather pricey for the time*). I was fortunate enough to sit next to Paul and before the session started and during the session was mesmerized as cards jumped from right hand to left hand and left hand to right - all at the same time. It would properly be classified as juggling, I guess, but it sure looked magical. I've seldom been impressed more before or since.

Later.....
i/m

* For perspective - my tickets to Super Bowl II and III were $6 each!

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James Sievert

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Reply with quote  #10 
DJ,

I went ahead and purchased Tony Chang's "Sandwiches" just out of curiosity and the trailer. Holy moly, now I need to start working on doing independent hand movements simultaneously. Now I wish I had been more serious about piano lessons back in the '70s.

Jim

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DJ

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Sievert
DJ,

I went ahead and purchased Tony Chang's "Sandwiches" just out of curiosity and the trailer. Holy moly, now I need to start working on doing independent hand movements simultaneously. Now I wish I had been more serious about piano lessons back in the '70s.

Jim


Ha I hear you Jim.  The good news is there is a lot taught on there that you can use independently of the routines such as as the control, the Be Kind Change and Vanish etc.  Right now I couldn't imagine trying to hit all of them in one routine.   If you search Youtube for Tony Chang Sandwiches there is a video of him performing Sandwiches for Mere Mortals in a living room and he nails it.  For me, out of all of the knacky moves in there I find the reveal of the Queens with the selection from Sandwiches for Mere Mortals to be the knackiest.   

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Reply with quote  #12 
Can any of you actually do the be kind change? I know we've a topic on here for dry hands but I haven't gotten any lotion yet and without it I've absolutely no mission of getting that card to swivel. It really bugs me though because I love the colour change and the vanish.

As it turns out I actually think I might have his Sandwiches somewhere so if I can find it I'll have to watch it.
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DJ

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Reply with quote  #13 
Synapse - I've found that when holding the deck (left hand for me) if you use your thumb, first and second finger to almost rotate the top half of the deck clockwise towards the base of your thumb with a light touch it helps as you try to swivel the card out.  Hopefully I've explained that correctly and it helps you out.
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Ben Morris-Rains

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Reply with quote  #14 
I bought Sandwiches a few years ago and it basically lead me to develop what I am calling the "Fourth Method Control," which is based on the "Fourth Method Two Handed Color Change" in Erdnase. 

After I bought Tony's routine I was like damn that is hard, so I bought Ernest's book and was like damn, this is still hard. So I had worked on something to sort of replicate bits of it. For some reason I developed something that is still difficult but it was my own difficult and worked better for me. 

I call my routine Torta's and I had shared this in a session a few months back. It is a sandwich trick that uses my control, as well as some dribble controls and a side steal. It is a lot of sleights tucked into about 15 seconds. My control combines knack and rhythm. I've been working on it for a few years and have added some subtleties that help to sell it. It is cool because it can be used as a control or an instant palm. I don't know if there is a faster way to palm a card from the middle of the pack. I dig knacky things and I have other stuff that is weird as well. The dribbles are all knack, just constantly playing with cards till the point you can stop at four, three, two, and one card. Here's a short performance video of Torta's: 

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DJ

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Reply with quote  #15 
Awesome Ben!  All those moves in 15 seconds I can tell you put in a lot of practice.
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