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Slowdini

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Reply with quote  #1 
First, I'm no card expert but I am studying the work. I'm mostly a book guy but occasionally I sneak in a video lesson.
I recieved an email from Lost Art Magic featuring Chicago's Simon Black with his Paradigm Shift. This man knows his stuff!
I dont buy alot of downloads - I'm definately a hard sell- but I was downloading this 1 minute after I saw the demo. $9 is maybe high when you think of say $60-$70 dollars for a Paul Gordon or Harry Lorayne book stuffed with gold but I think I know a gem when I see one, and here I feel it is well worth it.
The Paradigm Shift is a very nice shift that I will make part of my tool box and I think guys out there that do the real work may be surprised at how useful this move could be.
Yes, there are many ways to accomplish what this does but this useful move is beautiful, smooth, and quick in action, requiring very little work to get the knack down.
Its perfect for an Ambitious Card routine and I'm thinking of ways I could use it where I wouldn't even use another pass.
For example, Cervon's 'Free Turn Pass' is elegant and fun to do but would be a huge red flag in the middle of an Ambitious Card routine.
The Paradigm Shift doesnt look like a move as it flies by with naturalness.
Lost Art Magic is a class act, they have a top notch team.
Everything they produce is excellent.
You can trust that with Eric Jones on the team the material is of highest quality.
Check out the demo at
Lost Art Magic

https://lostartmagic.com/shop-2/
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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #2 
I got to hang out with Simon at John Luka's convention last year. Wow! Excellent chops indeed. 

Mike
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luvisi

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Reply with quote  #3 
If he's doing what I think he's doing then I admire his ability to smoothly transfer a left pinkie break into a right Erdnase break, his double lift, and his second deal.

The pass itself is okay, but I suspect that it only works for a certain style of card handling, only for tricks that don't require a full cut of the deck, and not at all for tricks where the backs of certain cards can't be exposed.  

I can't comment on his get ready, since it was edited out of all five demonstrations.  In one demonstration, even the pass itself was edited out, with a fair toss of the top half of the deck made to appear to be the pass.

If I'm correct in my assessment then by hiding the get ready, using a double lift and a second deal to try and imply that the selection is controlled to the top, when it is controlled second from the top, and even editing out the pass itself in a shot with a fair toss of the top half of the deck, this video deliberately gives the impression that the move does things that it does not do.

This sort of advertising does not boost my confidence in a seller.  It lowers it.

Andru
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Slowdini

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Reply with quote  #4 
Yeah on the one time youre talking about it is edited but you cant see it the other times, or in the explaination demonstrations. Also remember- lay people arent looking for the things you and I look for. Especially when you ask them a question and they look up momentarily - but even if they dont- there is still a very strong visual retention. I watched the download video many times and I think it looks great. It looks great in the mirror as well. My kids burn holes in my hands and they can't see it either.
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Harry Lorayne

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Reply with quote  #5 
  So Slowdini - let's do some math. I'm referring to your opening post. First - my books are MORE than $60 or $70 each, as you state. So, obviously you haven't purchased any of my books lately. Just want to set that straight. You cannot purchase any of my THE CLASSIC COLLECTION volumes, SPECIAL EFFECTS, JAW DROPPERS, etc., for that amount. Need to stress that so that future buyers are not disappointed.

       And, I'm sure that the item - the Paradigm Shift - is fine - although I personally don't need any shifts. But, as mentioned, let's do some math. You mention $9 for that one item - just a "move." My latest/current book (ONLY MY APOCALYPSE) contains seventy (70!) complete effects/routines - necessary moves taught within where needed. Plus a few of my Editorials, Ellipses(...) columns, Lorayne Storms, etc. 

       So, I think I should have put out each of the 70 items in a DVD, charging that $9 for each complete effect/routine. That would have brought in $630.00 for me - no charge for my Editorials, Ellipsesd(...) columns, Lorayne Storms, etc.

       Interesting. (Oh, just checked to be sure - and two or three of the items are just moves and different ways of doing them - but also how to use in effect/routines.) 
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luvisi

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowdini
Yeah on the one time youre talking about it is edited but you cant see it the other times, or in the explaination demonstrations. Also remember- lay people arent looking for the things you and I look for. Especially when you ask them a question and they look up momentarily - but even if they dont- there is still a very strong visual retention. I watched the download video many times and I think it looks great. It looks great in the mirror as well. My kids burn holes in my hands and they can't see it either.


I'm glad to hear that it works well for you.  I'm not troubled by the move itself, but by the marketing.  When selling a fantasy to the audience, we are expected to lie, cheat, and be underhanded.  Without deception, there would be no magic.

However, when selling a supposed reality to a magician, a magician who will need to deal with the actual mechanics and limitations of the product, it's different misleading the customer about what he is buying.

Now I know that we can't just reveal the secrets in an advertisement, but the modern trend towards excessive camera cuts, editing out the get ready and/or the clean up, and otherwise attempting to create an inaccurate illusion for the customer, a magician who will need to deal with the real life limitations of the product, is very unfortunate.

It means that, in general, we can never be sure that something will work for us unless and until we actually buy it, because we can't count on the seller to reveal any limitations that might cause the trick to not work for us or in our environment.

For what it's worth, I don't recall hearing anything about Simon Black or Black Art Magic before.  I'm reacting entirely to what I just saw in the video.  He's obviously a skilled magician.  I just think it's unfortunate that he and Lost Art Magic put out this sort of advertisement.

Andru
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Rudy Tinoco

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Reply with quote  #7 
I appreciate the review Slowdini.

The move looks very interesting. The little toss/spread action might not look natural in everyone's hands, but I'm glad it works for you.

When I see a trailer for a move like this one, I often ask myself a couple of simple questions..."Can I actually see myself handling cards that way? Would that look natural in my hands and in light of the way that I perform with cards?"

Again, I think that the move looks good, but I would personally never replace half of the deck like that.

I appreciate you taking time to share your thoughts with us.

Rudy

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Slowdini

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Reply with quote  #8 
Andru, us magicians know that if ad copy is cut- it could very well possibly indicate where perhaps the misdirection would be in performance. It is a good pass.
Harry, I just bought Jaw Droppers from you last month. You signed it to me. And Harry, did you forget about your ebooks? One can purchase two of those for $70!
Here is my Harry Lorayne collection:

Mathematical Wizardry
Best Of Friends Vol 1
Best Of Friends Vol 2
Personal Collection
Classic Collection Vol 1
Apocalypse Vol 1,2,3,4
Jaw Droppers
Rim Shots
Close-Up Card Magic
Super Power Memory
Memory Book.

I'm ordering Classic Collection next.
My library is huge and I admit theres alot to work thruough - my goal for the rest of my life!
- but it's gonna be fun!
Harry I absolutely love the Halo stuff in Rim Shots. Thats what Ive been working on presently. I'm using it to get into my
Cy Endfield 'Single Flight Of The Aces' which is fun to do as is all of your work.
This is just what Im working on right now.
Im still an infant with this stuff and the fun for me is reading a little from all of my books and tinkering with whatever catches my fancy.
I go on tangents and switch back and forth between books.
I just think The Paradigm Shift is a great tool.
I understand you dont use a shift.
You know how things like that are in all fields of interest: I play guitar and Im a Fender man yet some guitar slingers wouldnt be caught dead with a Strat in their hands!
My cousin paints suns with French's Mustard- her father only uses acrylics!
As you say and know well Harry: To each his own!!

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Harry Lorayne

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Reply with quote  #9 
   True. I was not thinking of ebooks. If you're going for regular Classic Collection books - let me know - maybe we can "work a deal." H.
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Tom G

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Reply with quote  #10 
I have to agree with Andru on this one.  Didn't care for the marketing.  And, as Rudy mentioned, the toss/spread action just doesn't work for me.
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Chi Han

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Lorayne
  So Slowdini - let's do some math. I'm referring to your opening post. First - my books are MORE than $60 or $70 each, as you state. So, obviously you haven't purchased any of my books lately. Just want to set that straight. You cannot purchase any of my THE CLASSIC COLLECTION volumes, SPECIAL EFFECTS, JAW DROPPERS, etc., for that amount. Need to stress that so that future buyers are not disappointed.

       And, I'm sure that the item - the Paradigm Shift - is fine - although I personally don't need any shifts. But, as mentioned, let's do some math. You mention $9 for that one item - just a "move." My latest/current book (ONLY MY APOCALYPSE) contains seventy (70!) complete effects/routines - necessary moves taught within where needed. Plus a few of my Editorials, Ellipses(...) columns, Lorayne Storms, etc. 

       So, I think I should have put out each of the 70 items in a DVD, charging that $9 for each complete effect/routine. That would have brought in $630.00 for me - no charge for my Editorials, Ellipsesd(...) columns, Lorayne Storms, etc.

       Interesting. (Oh, just checked to be sure - and two or three of the items are just moves and different ways of doing them - but also how to use in effect/routines.) 


This is EXACTLY what you could/probably should have done!  You've thrown away thousands of dollars.  I knew that it would be a matter of time before you realised what a horrible mistake you've made, which is why I already bought books or ebooks of your 4 Classic Collections, Jawdroppers, Special Effects, and Only My Apocalypse.  At the listing price I've pretty much robbed you, but the material was just too good to pass up.
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Slowdini

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Reply with quote  #12 
I hear what you guys are saying but I dont know..
I went back and watched the trailer again since I'm assuming you guys haven't seen the download and I gotta tell ya- I still stand by my thoughts.
But maybe Im an embryo- not even an infant yet.
I know you guys all perform and know way more than I do but I still wonder- what am I missing?
Perhaps even though Ive been reading magic books for 40 years (!) I still see magic with a laymans eye.
If a magician had me select any card, I look at card, when I look back he's holding bottom half of deck in one hand outstretched towards me, the other hand holding the top half is hovering behind that one as he tells me to place the card on bottom half. As I let go of card he asks me if I want to change my mind and select another card- I look up and say no- when I look down he's still holding the top half above the bottom half as he drops the top half onto my selection.
He riffles the edge of the pack- turns over top card and there's my card- I would have a strong sense of magic as I just saw him bury my card in the center! He then places my card back in the center, riffles side of deck, this time he even lets me turn over the top card and there is my selection! My little lay mind would be fried!
Thats barely even a routine but I would feel a strong sense of magic!
And yes, sure we all know 500 ways to do this same thing, but even when I knew passes and double lifts, someone fooled me with this same effect using other methods though essentially the same outline. He did alot more messing around with the cards than this takes and his control was mindblowing at the time.
Maybe I just have no clue in these matters- which could be the case- or perhaps it could be that thing where we are just thinking too much like a magician.
So maybe it isn't a magician fooler but if I'm remembering my lay mind correctly, a lay person would be a little surprised - at least!
Think about the average person you perform for- if you did use the Paradigm Shift in an effect where you needed a similar control- would it fool?
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Chi Han

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Reply with quote  #13 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowdini
I hear what you guys are saying but I dont know.. I went back and watched the trailer again since I'm assuming you guys haven't seen the download and I gotta tell ya- I still stand by my thoughts. But maybe Im an embryo- not even an infant yet. I know you guys all perform and know way more than I do but I still wonder- what am I missing? Perhaps even though Ive been reading magic books for 40 years (!) I still see magic with a laymans eye. If a magician had me select any card, I look at card, when I look back he's holding bottom half of deck in one hand outstretched towards me, the other hand holding the top half is hovering behind that one as he tells me to place the card on bottom half. As I let go of card he asks me if I want to change my mind and select another card- I look up and say no- when I look down he's still holding the top half above the bottom half as he drops the top half onto my selection. He riffles the edge of the pack- turns over top card and there's my card- I would have a strong sense of magic as I just saw him bury my card in the center! He then places my card back in the center, riffles side of deck, this time he even lets me turn over the top card and there is my selection! My little lay mind would be fried! Thats barely even a routine but I would feel a strong sense of magic! And yes, sure we all know 500 ways to do this same thing, but even when I knew passes and double lifts, someone fooled me with this same effect using other methods though essentially the same outline. He did alot more messing around with the cards than this takes and his control was mindblowing at the time. Maybe I just have no clue in these matters- which could be the case- or perhaps it could be that thing where we are just thinking too much like a magician. So maybe it isn't a magician fooler but if I'm remembering my lay mind correctly, a lay person would be a little surprised - at least! Think about the average person you perform for- if you did use the Paradigm Shift in an effect where you needed a similar control- would it fool?


This will definitely fool a layman, and I think we've all had that moment of creating wonder just by simply controlling a card from center to top, no matter how much (or little in my case) experience we have.  But whether something is fooling to a magician isn't I think the only criteria a lot of magicians have when choosing whether to spend money.

That's what it comes down to.  Most of us have a limited supply and a wish list that just grows, I think everyone's reservations are fine.  If we already know plenty of methods that fool just as well, why spend the extra money?  To a lay person controlling a card to the top via this pass or a classic pass have the same value.  If you could get a really invisible classic pass that's probably stronger just because it is invisible.

EDIT:  By invisible maybe I should clarify.  I don't know if everyone has the same experience, or if I'm just talking beyond my years.  But this is a phenomenon that's been written about in places like Strong Magic, and I see it come from performers all the time.  I've had the experience myself.  Even if your audience doesn't catch your move, if they catch something, they know you did something.  They may not know what you did, but they know it was something.  I usually try to cover it up by misdirecting, or making the move theatrical or flourish-y.  But something like the Classic Pass I go the opposite.  I try to make it look like nothing happened.  When you see my hands you see me just take the deck.  I don't think this Paradigm Shift offers that.  THAT'S NOT TO SAY IT'S BAD!  I use a spread pass more than a classic pass for the reason that my classic pass sucks.  Having a nice natural movement like bringing the cards together works for me, but it's by no means invisible.  But as to which one is stronger, for an audience, I think seeing a card just put in the middle, then a very normal looking square up is much less suspicious.

Just an aside, the move 'Paradigm Shift' looks very similar to a card control by Bill Whittington.  Norman Beck talks about it on his Penguin Lecture.  It's a fantastic control, and absolutely angle proof and very easy to do.  I think it actually might be the exact same control.  Bill's is actually a little cleaner in my opinion, because the cards don't spread out like they do in Simon Black's, but I have a feeling the principle might be the same.

Also, if the download is 9 dollars, you might want to just buy Simon Black's at the table lecture:  https://www.murphysmagic.com/product.aspx?id=57328  I don't have it, but Murphy's Magic says he covers the paradigm shift among various other things, at 7.95.  Might be a little more value for you.

Second Edit:

  • This is incredibly petty, and doesn't make me look good, but I just get real mad sometimes when I feel like I've been misinterpreted.
  • Just for posterity I do want to say that the part above with the word 'edit', was inserted a full day BEFORE Steven's reply below.  I feel better for mentioning this because I am a little irked that he replied to a single line in this post, then proceeded to say that he disagreed because I hadn't considered the exact same reason outlined in that paragraph above.
  • I'm also irked that he then said I thought this move was usable because it was 'fooling', when I never said that at all (either that the move was usable, or fooling).  Although I guess if that is implied I should have clarified.
  • I feel that he also didn't give enough weight to the fact that when this reply was written it's in REPLY to an above quote.  That quote is there to give context to the line 'This will definitely fool a layman'.
  • I obviously didn't think that it was a completely invisible move that the audience 'wouldn't suspect let alone detect' to paraphrase Erdnase, as I say that in the very next paragraph.  And I EVEN SAY THAT THE MOVE IS NOT AS GOOD FOR THAT VERY REASON.  Yet being told again and again that I'm wrong because of the EXACT SAME REASON I ESPOUSE just raises my hackles.
  • It's petty, and I won't be reading this thread anymore.  I think I've clarified myself fully.  I just really don't like being strawmanned.  I don't mind when people disagree with me, but at least disagree with me, not just this version of me that only exists in your mind.  And at least read the whole thing before replying.
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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #14 
The marketing...

Magic has become a real 21st Century business. This is OK but keep your guard up. 

Boom, boom hip hop music, lots of bass. Moving camera angles. People laughing. Then a foxy chick looks at the magician with bedroom eyes...

I NEED that. That could be me.....

Paypal... download... Oh well on to the next thing....

Also, don't be too sure that laypeople don't suspect secret moves. There are so many moves that draw attention to themselves. This shift might be one of them.

If I'm going for eye contact, I'll just use my mediocre classic pass. It'll definitely pass muster when I get eye contact. 

If someone is burning the deck and looking for a move. I think they'll suspect Simon's pass. It looks a bit strange - like "something just happened..."

Mike
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Slowdini

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Reply with quote  #15 
Chi Han Yeo-
Thanks for the information. I will dig deeper into the pass now while the subject is still fresh for me!
Tom Gagnon has some great work in "Too Hot For The Devil" as well.
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Slowdini

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Reply with quote  #16 
Mike- I get your point: you dont like it. And again: Im a book guy. I bought it on a whim cuz it looked good to me and I thought I could use it. I dont like all that boom boom boom either.
But come on, pretty much everything we do has a move right? It is our job to misdirect.
Im sure you've studied your Ascanio. We know about intransit moves. We know how to devide a move into two parts. In the demo there is focus on the move itself but in performance, we do things to misdirect attention. We pause, we tell jokes, we disarm- and while the spec has let down his guard to laugh as he looks to his or her friend or spouse - we move the arm forward and the shift is done. Whichever shift- whichever move. Youre the pro, Im the infant, you know these things. Even magicians can be fooled by a classic pass or a simple double lift. Even the Svengali deck requires some moves.
Isnt it our job as master performers to hide these moves?
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Steven Youell

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Reply with quote  #17 
It is no longer my habit to give reviews as I tend to be harsh. But I can't let this one go because it really is horrible. So be prepared for harsh, despite the fact that I've rewritten it several times. Please note that the word "Pass" has multiple meanings in Card Magic. In this review I use the word to mean secretly exchanging two halves of the deck.

First and foremost-- I would trust Andru's opinions regarding all passes over anyone else in the world. In the 40 years I've been practicing Sleight of Hand, no one I've ever met has better historical and functional knowledge of the pass. You guys have no idea of how lucky we are to have him on this forum.

Second-- This move and The Pass do not accomplish the same things. Neither do they have the same simplistic elegance. Neither do they have the same deceptive value. In terms of Sleights, this move has horrible blocking, comes at precisely the wrong time and absolutely screams "LOOK AT MY HANDS". The idea that this is a hybrid is ludicrous. In fact, using a jog shuffle is more efficient, versatile and deceptive. IMO, this move has many more tells than the Classic Pass.

Third-- I agree with Andru. Based on how the company marketed this, I would not trust this company.

Fourth-- the only real similarity I see here is that both the pass and this move can be used to control multiple cards that are grouped together.

Fifth-- His comments show that he has several misperceptions about what the Classic Pass actually is and how it should be used. Although I cannot say for sure, I believe that he does not understand the dynamics of the Classic Pass or how it should be used.

The entire move SCREAMS "Look at my hands!" Lifting the upper packet up right before the (main) movement has no purpose other than making things convenient for the (main) move. I'm making this assumption because it's a tell. No one adds a tell on purpose.

As a card control, this may have some merits that I could not find. However saying it's a substitute that covers the flaws of a Classic Pass belies the fact that you do not understand the Classic Pass or it's few minor flaws.

This is an example of youth. Great hands, knowledgeable in current Sleight of Hand but the wisdom that comes with experience, study and historical knowledge is not there.

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Steven Youell

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowdini
I bought it on a whim cuz it looked good to me and I thought I could use it.

That's exactly what their marketing is designed to do. Make something look as good as possible so you can take advantage of instant gratification. This has been used in Sales forever-- even the oldest version of Sales. [wink]  Unfortunately, in the age of video, Magic is just discovering these tactics. 

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Steven Youell

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chi Han Yeo
This will definitely fool a layman...

I think that's an insult to laymen everywhere and severely underestimates the intelligence of the average spectator.

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Magic-Aly

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Reply with quote  #20 
I for one, am happy that we have this Forum where people can discuss every aspect of Magic, including giving reviews of a product.  As others have already alluded to, it is unrealistic, in most cases, to depend on the claims and hype of the manufacturer and/or seller, due to the profit motive.  If so, there would be countless "Holy Grail" and "Ultimate" products on the market.  It is really good that we, as magicians, especially the more experienced ones, can help one another by giving honest reviews so that ideally, none of us will waste our hard-earned money on a product we simply won't use, or learn something that might actually weaken our performances.

When you think about it, even books and articles by brilliant scholars in the highest echelon of a field must go through a rigorous peer review process before they can achieve publication by a reputable publisher or journal.  Because of the close scrutiny of other scholars who have no financial or career-advancement stake in the venture, people can rely upon the contents to be accurate and feel confident that they are getting the truth. 

One problem with the constant barrage of the next "great" "must-have" items is that, instead of really getting down to an art the moves, tricks and routines they already know, or have been working on, magicians will skip willy-nilly from one thing to another, dabbling in this and that, but mastering very little, if anything, which breeds mediocrity.
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Slowdini

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Reply with quote  #21 
Thanks everyone for helping me temper my thinking and understanding. Purchasing this download has been quite serendipitous, priceless wisdom gained for $9 !
Now that I've had my @$$ kicked by the mentors I have a better understanding of what I need to do. Stay tuned...
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Chi Han

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Youell

I think that's an insult to laymen everywhere and severely underestimates the intelligence of the average spectator.


I sometimes feel this way about the double turnover and most false transfers.

Give me a couple of minutes to check this out.  I'd be very surprised if a lay person could tell me what I did. 

I did a version of this move to a lay person just now (I hope they were a lay person now that I think about it...it was a complete stranger.)*.  No misdirection, 100%, just look at my hands, card goes from middle to top.  Then asked them what they thought about it.  They said that I definitely did something, but couldn't quite grasp exactly what I did.  Which is exactly what I thought the reaction would be in the previous post.  I have no idea if this will fool 100% of the time, but it definitely fools at least 1 layman.

*I have no idea how the move is done, but as I say, the Bill Whittington move looks very similar, although the cards don't get splayed out quite as much.  That's what I ended up doing.
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Steven Youell

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chi Han Yeo

I did a version of this move to a lay person just now (I hope they were a lay person now that I think about it...it was a complete stranger.)*.  No misdirection, 100%, just look at my hands, card goes from middle to top.  Then asked them what they thought about it.  They said that I definitely did something, but couldn't quite grasp exactly what I did. 

Put a Dishtowel over your hands, do a pass and ask the same question. You'll get the same answer.
And... if they know you did something then you've failed just as big as if they know what you did.

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Chi Han

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Youell

And... if they know you did something then you've failed just as big as if they know what you did.


I said the exact same thing in my original post....



About the dishtowel thing.  I have a feeling if I did that, the lay person would say, you just took my card while your hands were under that towel and moved it to the top.  Which is in effect what happened, so I don't think it would deliver quite the same result....
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Slowdini

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Reply with quote  #25 
When we do a pass, we are holding both halves of the deck with our hands together. Nothing is supposed to be happening yet we fidget and wiggle our hands- while I hope we are pattering during this moment- and something happens: there is a transposition.
In the Paradigm Shift and even in the Hermann pass, we are moving the two halves toward each other as we patter- nothing outside of that action seems to happen yet there is a transposition.
Why are we trying to spank the Paradigm Shift for not being an 'invisible' pass?
It's not supposed to be; It is an 'In Transit' action.
Help me understand:
Q:Is the classic pass an 'In Transit' move?
Because I'm under the impression it is not.
The Paradigm Shift is.
I like how Harry doesn't use the pass.
That helps my understanding of what is really important and what needs to be done to accomplish what we do.
Also: Steven- your practice 'demo' looks awesome.
Thanks all of you for helping me work towards being better.
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luvisi

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Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowdini
Q:Is the classic pass an 'In Transit' move?


I'm not sure that "In Transit" really applies (or not) to moves absent the context of a particular trick.

If you ask a spectator to stand up, and do the move while everyone's watching them, then no.

If you do it while transferring the deck from hand to hand, to set it down or pull up your sleeve, then yes.

Andru
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Magic-Aly

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Reply with quote  #27 
STEVEN YOUELL WROTE: "If they know you did something then you have failed just as big as if they know what you did."

Amen to that. As Erdnase said: "They should not even suspect, let alone detect."

So essentially it does not matter what the move is - if we are either getting caught or arousing suspicion that we did something, then we need to change something - whether it be working on it until it is completely deceptive (which may mean smoothing it out, devising better misdirection, or both) or totally scrapping it altogether and finding another method to accomplish what we are setting out to do.

Some magicians might say, "well nobody ever said anything to me about it, so it must look good." But we must bear in mind that just because someone hasn't said anything doesn't mean we haven't been caught out or that they are not suspicious. Many people are too polite to say anything or too timid to do so. if you want a realistic appraisal of how something looks, then ask a friend, a partner, or family member to give you an honest critique when you perform something for them.

And I believe it is true, as Steven has suggested, that there are just some moves that are flat out no good because they are obvious or completely unnatural. Or it might often be the case that a particular move is natural for one person but not for another.
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Tom G

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Reply with quote  #28 
That one line from Erdnase has haunted me for years.  It very readily can relate to gambling and magic. 
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Steven Youell

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chi Han Yeo
About the dishtowel thing.  I have a feeling if I did that, the lay person would say, you just took my card while your hands were under that towel and moved it to the top.  Which is in effect what happened, so I don't think it would deliver quite the same result....

Do you not understand figurative language? Or did you not get my point? Let me try again.

Put two duplicates on the deck. Show the top one and slowly put it in the center. Then cover the deck with your right hand and jiggle the deck a little as if you were doing a Sleight. Show the card on top and then ask the spectator what they thought. Their conclusion will be the same: you did something.

In your version you used a very bad Sleight. In the above version there is no Sleight.
Yet, the spectator will come to the same conclusion. So IMO, the test is flawed.
The spectator sees the results and knows you did something. That is not a test for deception.


Saying something fools a layperson and is therefore worthy of being used is the mark of an amateur. This is why I rankle every time I hear someone say "Well, it flies by Laypeople".

I rewrote this several times to avoid going all "Old School Youell" on you. You're welcome! [biggrin]

Now it's time to take a break before "Old School Youell" shows up. I might not be able to hold him back next time. LOL


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Chi Han

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Reply with quote  #30 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Youell

Do you not understand figurative language? Or did you not get my point? Let me try again.

Put two duplicates on the deck. Show the top one and slowly put it in the center. Then cover the deck with your right hand and jiggle the deck a little as if you were doing a Sleight. Show the card on top and then ask the spectator what they thought. Their conclusion will be the same: you did something.

In your version you used a very bad Sleight. In the above version there is no Sleight.
Yet, the spectator will come to the same conclusion. So IMO, the test is flawed.
The spectator sees the results and knows you did something. That is not a test for deception.


Saying something fools a layperson and is therefore worthy of being used is the mark of an amateur. This is why I rankle every time I hear someone say "Well, it flies by Laypeople".

I rewrote this several times to avoid going all "Old School Youell" on you. You're welcome! [biggrin]

Now it's time to take a break before "Old School Youell" shows up. I might not be able to hold him back next time. LOL



I don't think you quite understand my point at all. I think you should read my original post in it's entirety. I didn't say many of the things I think you think I said.

The bit about the spectator seeing a sleight vs no sleight is something I talked about in the original post. Additionally I never said the move was worthy of being used. I think you're getting angry at a strawman here, because most of the points you address are things I never said.
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Steven Youell

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chi Han Yeo
I don't think you quite understand my point at all.

I'm not angry at all and it is quite possible I misunderstood you.
I don't think I did, but you absolutely deserve the benefit of doubt.
Therefore I'll let it go-- sorry if I offended.

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Chi Han

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Youell

I'm not angry at all and it is quite possible I misunderstood you.
I don't think I did, but you absolutely deserve the benefit of doubt.
Therefore I'll let it go-- sorry if I offended.


Thanks Steven, apologies for the same.

My original post was a response to something Slowdini said that I quoted.  I think he said (unless I misunderstood him, but I will be paraphrasing here), that his eye (which he still considers to be a layman's eye), would be unable to track the card.  I agreed that a layman would probably be fooled in that sense, but there were more considerations when buying a sleight.  I included as one if whether the move was suspicious vs invisible, whether we already have other methods that do the same thing, etc..etc...

Perhaps I wasn't clear.  I'm not defending the move, but it's not for me.  However I think the reason I wasn't clear is because I don't think it's a bad move, just not for me.  I'm sure there are some great contexts for it, but if I did learn it it would be for the same reason I learned the Midnight Shift, because I like learning moves 
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Steven Youell

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Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chi Han Yeo
However I think the reason I wasn't clear is because I don't think it's a bad move, just not for me.  I'm sure there are some great contexts for it, but if I did learn it it would be for the same reason I learned the Midnight Shift, because I like learning moves 

My point is that it IS a bad move. So we'll agree to disagree.

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Chi Han

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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Youell

My point is that it IS a bad move. So we'll agree to disagree.


As long as that wasn't the only thing you focused on in that whole spiel.  My idea that it's not for me is covered in context.
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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #35 
I don't think there's anything wrong or bad about learning moves. But, to be useful a move must be deceptive. Generally a move that is "not to be seen" i.e. is secret shouldn't draw attention to itself. Vinny on the Magic Cafe is loaded with moves that draw attention to themselves in a major way. Once in a while he comes up with something I think could be workable. But most of the time his handling draws attention to itself at a critical moment. Lots of Cafe folk seem to like Vinney's moves. I have a difficult time understanding why they don't see what I see viz. the move screams MOVE. Sirens are going off in the consciousness of the audience.

A couple of factors prevent the audience from calling out "you just did something!" 1) Force of personality of the performer. They may feel that the performer, like many comedians, will put them in their place. 2) Your character is well liked and they don't want to hurt your show.

I have always wanted to do the following research: Arm each member of the audience with a button they can push. A computer is recording a time line as someone performs and is videoed. Pushing the button creates a mark in the time line.

The audience is given these instructions: Try not to look for methods. Just enjoy the show. Have fun. However, if something happens that you think is suspicious like "he just did something that I shouldn't be aware of" then push the button. If you do push the button, try to return to a "just enjoy the show" attitude.

Clearly this isn't a perfect experiment but I'll bet the results would be very interesting. The performer could watch his performance with a timeline that shows when buttons were pushed.

I think that using the pass/shift under discussion would garner a number of button pushes i.e. people would consciously think "he just did something." If that's true then Steve's comment "... it IS a bad move" hold up. This is how we'd judge the quality of a move. Do people register "something just happened that I wasn't supposed to see." If so, it's a bad move or it was executed poorly.

Mike
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Chi Han

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Reply with quote  #36 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Powers
I don't think there's anything wrong or bad about learning moves. But, to be useful a move must be deceptive. Generally a move that is "not to be seen" i.e. is secret shouldn't draw attention to itself. Vinny on the Magic Cafe is loaded with moves that draw attention to themselves in a major way. Once in a while he comes up with something I think could be workable. But most of the time his handling draws attention to itself at a critical moment. Lots of Cafe folk seem to like Vinney's moves. I have a difficult time understanding why they don't see what I see viz. the move screams MOVE. Sirens are going off in the consciousness of the audience.

A couple of factors prevent the audience from calling out "you just did something!" 1) Force of personality of the performer. They may feel that the performed, like many comedians, will put them in their place. 2) Your character is well liked and they don't want to hurt your show.

I have always wanted to do the following research: Arm each member of the audience with a button they can push. A computer is recording a time line as someone performs and is videoed. Pushing the button creates a mark in the time line.

The audience is given these instructions: Try not to look for methods. Just enjoy the show. Have fun. However, if something happens that you think is suspicious like "he just did something that I shouldn't be aware of" then push the button. If you do push the button, try to return to a "just enjoy the show" attitude.

Clearly this isn't a perfect experiment but I'll bet the results would be very interesting. The performer could watch his performance with a timeline that shows when buttons were pushed.

I think that using the pass/shift under discussion would garner a number of button pushes i.e. people would consciously think "he just did something." If that's true then Steve's comment "... it IS a bad move" hold up. This is how we'd judge the quality of a move. Do people register "something just happened that I wasn't supposed to see." If so, it's a bad move or it was executed poorly.

Mike 


I agree with you Mike.  In fact I say something very similar in my original post, except I never conclude whether the move is bad or not.
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Slowdini

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Reply with quote  #37 
Lets say Im standing surrounded. Spec pics a card and places it on top of the bottom half. Im holding top half in right hand. I have to drop that half on top and control selected card to top or second or third from top. Im being burned. If I do a Classic pass Im busted.
What do you do?
Why not : before I replace top half, I gesture with left hand (bottom half with selection on top) to person on my left -'you saw the card?' Then to person in front- 'you saw it?' Then I bring my left hand across my body and gesture to the person on my right - And I know you saw it cuz youre watching me like a hawk! This causes a tiny disruption, maybe they laugh and look at each other. At that moment as Im moving my left hand back, my right hand that hasnt moved meets the left hand in motion and like a top change, the packets are switch with selection in right hand 1-2-or three cards down. I then drop the packet on top and the shift is done. Did anyone suspect a move was done?
Sorry to beat a dead horse after running it in the ground but Im just trying to peel back the layers.
How would you guys get that card to the top while youre being burned?
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Harry Lorayne

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Reply with quote  #38 
I've written it sooooo many times - yes, selection is placed on left half as you hold other half in right hand. Place right-hand half onto left half holding momentary break - immediately double cut bottom half to top and - without pausing - do a couple of overhand injog shuffles. Done. No need to kill a fly with a sledge hammer.
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Harry Lorayne

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Reply with quote  #39 
    Oh, and you can throw in my Status Quo Shuffle, which keeps the top card in place - along with an overhand injog shuffle or two.
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Slowdini

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Reply with quote  #40 
I cant thank you enough Harry. I get it now! Thank you for replying.
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Harry Lorayne

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Reply with quote  #41 
My pleasure, Slowdini.
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Magic-Aly

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Reply with quote  #42 
Slowdini Wrote: "Lets say Im standing surrounded. Spec pics a card and places it on top of the bottom half. Im holding top half in right hand."

In my humble 
opinion, it begs the real question to ask how to control a card after a spectator places it on top of the bottom half.  Once you have them replace it there at the spot where you indicate (assuming they are willing to do that), you have dispelled the illusion of magic.  I know that many "top card men" do it that way, followed then by the pass or whatever.   I don't care.  In that situation, the magician is dictating to the spectator where to replace his/her card.  This telegraphs the spectator that you are about to control their card, and is not (again, in my personal opinion) magic. I prefer to avoid card controls that involve having a spectator take a card out of the deck and then replace it where the magician tells them to. There are a number of effective ways to control a card without telling a spectator where to put it back, or that dispense with the need to have them "pick-a-card" out of the deck to begin with.

I will add that once the card is in fact on top Harry's Status Quo Shuffle is a great convincer that the card is not on top, or at least that it is not there anymore even if they suspected it was.
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Slowdini

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Reply with quote  #43 
Thanks for the ideas Magic-Aly!
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Magic-Aly

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Reply with quote  #44 
You are more than welcome, Slowdini!
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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #45 
For me it'd be a Bluff Pass. I'd have the guy on my left take the card. Then I riffle down the corner for a "stop." You already have a break under the appropriate number of cards i.e. 3 for 4th from the top etc.

A well executed Bluff Pass is a real fooler IMO. I use it a lot. I don't think is looks fishy. When executed properly it looks like what it purports to be (I HOPE!).



pswd: marlo7d

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Harry Lorayne

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Reply with quote  #46 
     I usually agree with all you say, Magic-Aly - sorry, not this time. I have never, EVER, created any suspicion whatsoever - just the opposite - by having a free selection replaced as I discussed above. Been doing it that way for quite a few decades. Oh well - as usual, to each his own. Right?
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Magic-Aly

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Reply with quote  #47 
Yes, Harry, I agree to each his own.  It's a good philosophy in magic and in life.
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StevePR104

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Reply with quote  #48 
I'm just reminded of what some old guy said:

Quote:
It is entirely another matter to palm them from the deck in such a manner that the most critical observer would even suspect, let alone detect, the action.


And to clarify, Lost Art Magic is partially owned by Eric Jones.  Who is not some old guy.
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Slowdini

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Reply with quote  #49 
Thanks for replying Mike! The Tucker is very nice but I made a devilish grin at that Montague! I love bold stuff like that. Makes me think of the ever bold Charlie Miller false cut. I was practing that false cut one day and my kid walked in the room to ask me something- he see's me do it and says, 'Woo what the hell was that!'
I kinda like when specs know I did something but can't tell what. I've had magicians do moves like that and I know somethings happening but there is a sassy grace to it that always intrigues me.
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Stevie Ray Christian

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Reply with quote  #50 
Mike Powers said: For me it'd be a Bluff Pass...

I love the bluff pass and use it in some of my favorite routines.

Aaron Fischer's Bluff Replacement Subtlety from The Paper Engine is a terrific way to set up the dribble.

British magician Bobby Bernard has an interesting take in Apocalypse Vol 4, No. 5, wherein the selection is taken face up from the table.

As for a $9 video well worth the investment, I recommend Joshua Jay's Bluff Shift Bundle available at Vanishing Inc. Josh offers several excellent ideas. His tabled bluff pass is a very natural looking 
deceit and it works well when one is seated. I have fried some very intelligent and observant lay-folk while incorporating this simple move.

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