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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #1 
I had this idea yesterday of doing readings with gemstones, and to end the reading I would leave 6 stones on the table and though the process of "magicians choice", the sitter is left with one stone on the table..then the reader shows that in a separate bag, that one gemstone, matches the sitter's gemstone.

Is this a good idea or not? I know that magic tricks don't belong in readings, but I think this is different because it's easy to blend the two art forms. I don't work with gemstones currently but, this is something that I might try out.

Or, does my idea really suck bad, please be honest with me.

TIA

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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #2 
I wouldn't say your idea sucks. At least you are thinking, and that can lead to all sorts of places you'd never reach if you stopped.

There are plenty of regularly performing mentalists on the forum who can better answer your question, but to me it seems too much of stretch to combine magic with mentalism as you describe. For the magician who performs mental magic, not so much. But for a serious mentalist? Too much.

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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #3 
I was thinking that the bag with the one prediction gemstone in it, would be in view during the reading process.

Thanks for your input, Av!

Logan,
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arthur stead

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Reply with quote  #4 

Two thoughts, Mind Phantom:  First of all, I would think very carefully about how you use “magicians choice” to force the intended gem.  It’s got to be very convincing and above suspicion.    

Second, I think your idea would benefit from “dressing it up” with interesting props and an intriguing storyline. For example, Mary Tomich (author of The Alter Flame) had a routine somewhat similar to your idea, but which was made much more interesting with unusual props and a storyline with a bizarre twist.  It was called Within A Heart. 

I can’t remember the story, but the props included a small candle in a candle holder, an ornate, examinable, see-through metal pendant in the shape of a heart hanging from a ribbon, several gemstones, and some pieces of flash paper.  If I remember correctly, in Mary’s presentation, a gemstone was selected by the volunteer, and then vanished.  Then one off the pieces of paper was placed inside the pendant (previously shown to be empty).  The candle flame ignited the flash paper, and suddenly the selected gemstone appeared inside.

 


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Robin Dawes

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Reply with quote  #5 
Hi MP

I think there is a lot of merit in this.   Like Arthur, I have reservations about Magician's Choice to control the choice of the gemstone.  In fact I would not force the choice at all.  Let it be a free choice and incorporate the properties of the chosen stone into the reading.

Now the question is how to make sure the gemstone in the bag that has been on the table all along matches the chosen one.  I have a solution but I will hold off on posting it ... not trying to be coy, just don't want to stifle other peoples' creativity.

Robin
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Bmat

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Reply with quote  #6 
I think this would lend itself to bizarre magic performance rather than a reading.  If you are a serious reader, then it is a bad idea to combine the two, you risk your rep.  But the idea does not suck,  just might be the wrong venue. 
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Paul Hallas

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Reply with quote  #7 
I see nothing wrong with predicting the gemstone, although predicting a gemstone that will be selected I doubt would be am original idea. Reminded me a little of Mark Strivings's "Warm Fuzzies" which uses colored stones and a couple in a compatibility experiment. Worth tracking down.
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Blathermist

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Reply with quote  #8 

Edited. By which I mean shifted to where it should be.
Any mentalists out there with any ideas of how to stop me falling over my fingers?
Hey ho.[confused][frown][redface][rolleyes][rofl]

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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #9 
From his book Capricornian Tales Christian Chelman does a routine with old coins ( 5 or 6 ) which uses a Magician's Choice idea he got from Max Maven. I don't have the book any more but I can get a download from L & L. That's one of the best Magician's Choice effects I have come across.

I understand that the reading is all about the sitter & the sitter's feelings, thoughts & desires. If the "convincer" gets in the way of that, maybe it's better to put the idea of doing a magician's choice back on the shelf.

Does anyone do Invisible Gemstones by Enrique Enriquez? Do you like the effect? That's the only e-book I don't have of his.

I also would need to do a couple of presentations with the stones to come up with a basic stock reading, like I do my palm readings with. Let me play with the idea for a while & see what comes up. Thank you guys for your advice.

Best,
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Robin Dawes

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Reply with quote  #10 
Just saying again ... there is absolutely no reason to force the gemstone. 

If I were trying to build this into a serious reading, I would wait until half way through (so it would be plausible that I had enough insight into the sitter's personality) then announce I was putting something into the bag on the table that might be meaningful later.   Then later in the reading I would introduce the stones and have one freely selected.  After continuing the reading incorporating the significance of the chosen stone I would redirect attention to the bag and remind the sitter that I put something in it that I thought would be significant.  Then I would ask the sitter to hold out his hand and I would pour the exact matching gemstone into his hand.

As I see it, the value of this would be to lend support to your ability to provide accurate readings.
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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Dawes
Just saying again ... there is absolutely no reason to force the gemstone. 



I hear you Robin...I think were on the same page.
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Blathermist

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Dawes
Interesting thought as always, Blathermist ... but was this comment intended for a different discussion?

Indeed it was.
I've been searching for it myself on the thread it was meant for.
Situation now remedied. I hope.

[smile]
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EVILDAN

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Reply with quote  #13 
What does it add to the reading?
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jim ferguson

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Reply with quote  #14 
A "reader", Palmist, fortune teller, or whatever you want to call it, shouldn't be using "stock lines" or magical principles - that's not a reading, that's a con.

If its clear to the sitter that what they're experiencing is a magic performance, then that's another story. But if the sitter believes they are getting a genuine reading, then using trickery is extremely bad form.


Jim

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Robin Dawes

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Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVILDAN
What does it add to the reading?


Stepping back a level ... what is the value of the reading, from the sitter's perspective?   I'm not trying to be disruptive or argumentative - I'm genuinely asking.  What does the sitter get from the reading?  Increased self-knowledge?  New insights into a problem they are facing?  Comfort?

I've never participated in a reading on either side of the table.

Robin
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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim ferguson
A "reader", Palmist, fortune teller, or whatever you want to call it, shouldn't be using "stock lines" or magical principles - that's not a reading, that's a con.





Hi., Jim,

You raise an interesting question,and i'll take first someone using " magical " principles. In one of my cold reading books called The Dance by Brad Henderson through out the book can be found what I call "tricky language",  It's not something I would say to someone across the table.It's something I just don't do. I use to do a peek of the sitters question on the back of my business card that's a John Riggs idea, I found that if I just asked the sitter why they wanted a reading, they would just tell me the question lol.

As to your statement in regards using "stock-lines" I have about 20 to 30 books on the tarot,palms,astrology etc. Guess what? All those books are full "stock-lines"! Yup.

I would also say further that any stock-line can produce an emotional reaction, just as any card or line on the palm can.do.

So what is the difference between a deck of tarot cards and some soundbites from a tarot book? Not much in MHO. I try to stay away from the cold reading books that were written by Magicians who have no experince on both sides of the table.

Also Tony Corinda in his book 13 Steps said that the highest form of mentalism is that of a private reader.IMHO very few can read for other people in the world of mentalism.

Rick~


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jim ferguson

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Reply with quote  #17 
I'm not sure what some of that means. I'm sure its just me though, its been a long day.

You did not address my point about what the sitter believes is happening. Is the sitter expecting to see some type of magic performance ? Or do they believe they are genuinely having their palm or cards read ?

If the sitter is aware that they are seeing some kind of illusion, then of course any magical methods are fair game.

But if that person believes they are genuinely having their cards or palm read, to then use trickery is both unnecessary and dishonest (regardless of what it says in a book).

I used to read the cards many years ago, and there is simply no need to fake it, or use trickery to enhance it.


Jim


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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #18 
Well, I'll give you what I believe about the matter:

Either I can help people or rip them off...it all comes down to intent. I chose to help those which I read for.When I started reading cards, I used a convincer and it was Zodiac by Christian Chelman from the book Capricornian Tales.

That was a long time ago. I learned how to give decent readings over time, where I didn't have to use that layout anymore, I am not saying it's right or wrong, it's just what I did for few years.

For someone who is a brand new reader, I can't judge them if they use a convincer to enchance the reading. That's their business.

T.A Waters in his essays on fortune telling in Mind, Myth & Magick talks about this and there of course is the massive amount of threads on fortune telling at the green place.

I don't want to get off topic here...

Best,
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jim ferguson

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mind Phantom
Well, I'll give you what I believe about the matter:

Either I can help people or rip them off...it all comes down to intent. I chose to help those which I read for.When I started reading cards, I used a convincer and it was Zodiac by Christian Chelman from the book Capricornian Tales.

That was a long time ago. I learned how to give decent readings over time, where I didn't have to use that layout anymore, I am not saying it's right or wrong, it's just what I did for few years.

For someone who is a brand new reader, I can't judge them if they use a convincer to enchance the reading.



Only a magician would even think about using magic techniques or tricks in what is supposed to be a real reading. Folks who are learning to read cards or palms usually just learn the systems and take it from there - no tricks.

You mentioned that as you see it you can either help people or rip them off, and it comes down to intent. I don't think its as simple as that, and I think you're looking at it the wrong way.
Ive asked you a question twice now, which you seem reluctant to answer. I'm assuming, from your above post, that the answer is that the "sitter" was led to believe they were seeing a genuine fortune teller (or however you want to put it). In that scenario, the clients are indeed being "ripped off", conned - even more so if these were paying clients.
Regardless of your intent, the fact is that most, if not all, clients would feel cheated to find out the fortune teller they'd seen was faking it and using trickery.


Jim

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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim ferguson



Only a magician would even think about using magic techniques or tricks in what is supposed to be a real reading. Folks who are learning to read cards or palms usually just learn the systems and take it from there - no tricks.


,


I agree with you on that as I no longer use magicial methods in my readings, and haven't done so in a LONG time.

I am only interested if it's a good idea to use a convincer with gemstones, that's it.

Are people being Conned or not? When I did use magicial methods...a gave the sitter..a sugar pill, metaphorically so to speak. The placebo effect is a vrery powerful thing. I know you don't like that answer,but it's true. I still use the placebo effect in my readings. Is that conning people? I think it might help them. But  it's been a long time since I did anything like that.

Are you a JREF member? Or, The Magic Cafe? That's what's would explain your line of questioning with me.



Rick-





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jim ferguson

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mind Phantom
Are you a JREF member? Or, The Magic Cafe? That would explain a lot.


Rick-








What's that supposed to mean ?

I'll say it again - if your client is paying you for a "reading", and is not aware that the reading also involves trickery, then you are conning that client. They are being cheated, regardless of how you sugar coat it.

I can assure you, anyone going to see a fortune teller (or whatever you want to call it), and paying good money for the privilege, would be pretty miffed to find out that magicians tricks were involved.


Jim

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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #22 
Gents, an interesting discussion here. Thanks for keeping it clean and to the point - That's one of the many things that separate this forum from others.

Jim, until Rick returns, I believe his question about JREF - the James Randi Education Foundation - refers to your ability skeptically question assertions and demand evidence over unsupported claims. 'course I could be wrong!

Av
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ZAVIADELITA

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Reply with quote  #23 
Always good to think of ideas new routines ect Everything
Begins with a thought. For me if I'm doing a reading Gemstone or otherwise I leave it at that. The gemstone match is good but just for me that's a trick and If I were to do that after a reading it may leave some thought to how real was the reading. If however your just doing pick a gemstone and then throwing out a few quick facts zodiac sign or your ready for a artistic change and then have the gem match I think that could be good. If a reading is just for one person and like 20 minutes in length I would save the gem match for a shorter reading.Just my thoughts but in the long run do what you feel best with and if reactions are good you have a hit!
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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #24 
Jim,

I apologize for calling you a JREF or a Magic Cafe member.

I'll tell you what I've learned while I was doing fortune telling with a convincer, after you have told them their question or told them what day & month they were born on, I learned this lesson~

" PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BELIEVE WHAT YOU TELL THEM '

If you were to divine someone's question and then point out all the good things that the cards say, people arer going to believe you, this is why fortune telling isn't for everybody.

If you can divine someone's birthday by what the cards tell you, then wouldn't it be vaild that the same information that came from spirit,Source,Inner Being or whatever label you want to call it, is also comming from the same place. That's why they will hang on your every word because they think it's comoing from the divine.
 
Of course people will be upset if they found out I were doing magic tricks, who wouldn't!?

I am a very much new-age type of guy,and I have a lot of new-age beliefs that spill out into my card & palm readings. I know you don't like this but it comes down to your intent, help them or rip em off.

In my past I decided to help them. I don't do many readings anyone, but I would still try and help the sitter,without all the bells and hoopla.

Rick-
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jim ferguson

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mind Phantom
Of course people will be upset if they found out I were doing magic tricks, who wouldn't!?

I am a very much new-age type of guy,and I have a lot of new-age beliefs that spill out into my card & palm readings. I know you don't like this but it comes down to your intent, help them or rip em off.

In my past I decided to help them. I don't do many readings anyone, but I would still try and help the sitter,without all the bells and hoopla.

Rick-



The first sentence I quoted - doesn't that tell you something then ? Anyway, you also said that nowadays you keep the readings proper, so there is no argument.

The other part I quoted where you said "I know you don't like this". I think there may be some confusion here - I am not opposed to doing readings, and there is nothing at all wrong with you having new age beliefs. As I said, I used to do the cards myself. I find the supernatural a fascinating subject, and is something that has interested me since childhood. My grandmother was a Romany gypsy, and I grew up with tales of the weird and wonderful - I'm about as superstitious as you can get. I have a pretty decent library on the subjects, including a lovely first edition set of Man Myth and Magic from 1970. Just recently I bought myself a nice thirty year old deck of tarot cards as I was thinking of getting back into them again.
So I am certainly not opposed to such things.

The problem is the use of trickery in what the client believes to be a genuine reading.


Jim


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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #26 
I thought you were against doing readings, I see nothing else to debate here.

Rick-
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