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Waterman

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Reply with quote  #1 
I recently saw a download advertised for a single effect by a very well known magician. I searched several books that I own written by the magician to see if the effect could be found in one of them...at first search I could not find the effect...at least by the name it went by in the download.

I ordered the download and to my dismay it WAS in one of the books, but under a different name!

Although I'm only out about ten bucks...and will actually use this effect...I still feel a little foolish.
And, to be honest,  a bit disappointed that the magician in question would allow a previously published effect to be advertised under a different title as a one trick download.

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Chi Han

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Reply with quote  #2 
I wouldn't feel stupid, there was no real way for you to know. Perhaps if you had been more patient you might have asked others etc...taken more time, but that has nothing to do with intelligence. There's also no guarantee that if you had taken all the steps you would have found out you owned the trick.

As for why it would be in a download, sometimes people want video instruction. Costs more to produce, so they charge accordingly.

It might also have updated handling, and publishing a download makes more economic sense than reprinting the book.
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ParaSailor

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Reply with quote  #3 
No, I don't think you should feel stupid at all.  You did your due diligence and looked to see if you had the trick already; many might not have done that.  Did he at least throw in some new information with it or was the download basically the same as the book?
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rready

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Reply with quote  #4 
I agree with you. These downloads should start mentioning if it is previously in a book by the magician with the same name or under a different name.
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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #5 
Stupid? Nah. We've all done it. There's a line from one of the Tremors movies that my wife and I trade back and forth, "I feel I was denied critical, need-to-know information!" Yeah, that's about it. Don't feel stupid, it wasn't you. Caveat emptor has been around so long we still use the Latin! It might be worth writing the magician in question, though, and letting them know how you feel. Be kind. After all, they may not have been fully aware of the marketing behind the download. 

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Waterman

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParaSailor
No, I don't think you should feel stupid at all.  You did your due diligence and looked to see if you had the trick already; many might not have done that.  Did he at least throw in some new information with it or was the download basically the same as the book?


The download used another "random" card than what was originally used in the book. Other than that nothing was added to the effect.

As I said..the trick is GOOD! I probably would have never gone through the book again to find it had I not seen the download so I'm not disappointed...
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Waterman

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Vinson
Stupid? Nah. We've all done it. There's a line from one of the Tremors movies that my wife and I trade back and forth, "I feel I was denied critical, need-to-know information!" Yeah, that's about it. Don't feel stupid, it wasn't you. Caveat emptor has been around so long we still use the Latin! It might be worth writing the magician in question, though, and letting them know how you feel. Be kind. After all, they may not have been fully aware of the marketing behind the download. 

Av


Thanks Anthony. I'll actually be seeing this magician in person in a little less than a month. I'll be diplomatic in my approach and interested to hear his reaction.
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chris w

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Reply with quote  #8 
Your experience of doing your due diligence and still paying for the trick twice illustrates why, if they're going to rename an existing thing for a download, they should let shoppers know they've done it. This isn't on you at all, in my book.

But having your attention called to something you'd previously missed, that you'll actually use, for $10 isn't bad either.
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Intensely Magic

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Reply with quote  #9 
I’m surprised you’re getting so many people to agree with you. I’ve been on the warpath about this Vault stuff and reissuance for some time and generally, I’ve been told it is my fault.

I’ll give you a good example. There’s a trick called “Bunny Bill” for sale at $10. It’s straight out of the Paul Harris set. Nothing added, just a straight cut. It was an Easter Egg”. I don’t think it is unreasonable to get some straight poop from those selling the rehash. Just a little simple honesty. Otherwise, I think it is just stealing.

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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Intensely Magic
I’m surprised you’re getting so many people to agree with you. I’ve been on the warpath about this Vault stuff and reissuance for some time and generally, I’ve been told it is my fault.


The difference, I think, is that The Vault makes no attempt to hide its nature. 

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Bmat

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Reply with quote  #11 
I agree with everyone.  The Vault is making no attempt to hide what they are doing.  That is why it is called the Vault.  As for feeling foolish.  No you should not, the creator of the effect should be ashamed. 
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Tom G

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Reply with quote  #12 
Wayyyy too many times a trick will be marketed under many different names.   Just a short time ago there were 2-3 tricks released, based on an Eddie Fields effect. 
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MagicRich2019

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Reply with quote  #13 
Now I'm curious as to who the magician was and the trick and the book
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Rudy Tinoco

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicRich2019
Now I'm curious as to who the magician was and the trick and the book


Hi Rich, happy Friday! I met with Dan a few days ago, so I know who he’s talking about. I think that it’s incredibly shady to market something that was previously published under a different name.

I am on the fence about publicly stating the name of the magician. I sent you a PM instead. It’s probably just better that everyone hears Dan’s warning—which is that we should really investigate something before we buy it.

Rudy


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BarronOfMagic

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Reply with quote  #15 
I recently saw a download advertised for a single effect by a very well known magician.

Thank you for supporting Magic!

What you experienced was a bait and switch type scam. Except instead of swithing the product, the scammer switched the name. Many people feel foolish when they are conned; don’t! It just means you are honest & trusting and cannot imagine a fellow practitioner treating fans that way. They should be ashamed!


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Dave Campbell

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Reply with quote  #16 
I did my due diligence as well, and I'm going to guess I'm sure it was for the same effect that I ended up going for $10 for.

Was it worth $10 -- sure, and for me -- because I didn't have his book it was in.

However, it turns out that he has a book on the same site (I think) that has it in it under a different name with a bunch of other things being taught and the book is $20.

Had I known that, I would have gone the extra $10.

I've gotten a LOT better about looking up things in books to make sure I'm not doubling up on stuff, but when they change the name... I don't know -- seems wrong.

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Intensely Magic

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Vinson


The difference, I think, is that The Vault makes no attempt to hide its nature. 

Av


Actually, if you go to Murphy's and listen to Bro Gilbert's explanation, I'll believe you will find it less than forthright. At least I did.

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Bill Guinee

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Reply with quote  #18 
Personally, I think that this kind of con deserves a couple of reactions: First, I would explain the situation to the vendor and ask for a return, credit, or refund; it is possible that the vendor does not know about the problem. Second, if #1 did not work, I would inform the vendor that I intend to do my future business with a different vendor and that I intend to out him by publishing the details of the transaction on public forums. The point is that we should not continue to reward unscrupulous behavior. But, if they know about it and don't do anything about it, then they need to realize that their loss of future sales will be greater than the $10 they earned on this transaction. I believe in giving my business to those who treat me well. You will only need to feel stupid if you continue to do business with someone that you know has ripped you off.
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Evan S.

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Reply with quote  #19 
I think we've all fallen victim to a purchase that we later realize is something we already have. This situation surprised me when I first realized it (re-titling the previously published item), especially given who the creator is. My guess is that they renamed this for marketing purposes, because the original title was a bit odd. It would, however, have been nice to put some reference to the original trick in the ad copy. Does he mention the original in the download?
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Waterman

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan S.
I think we've all fallen victim to a purchase that we later realize is something we already have. This situation surprised me when I first realized it (re-titling the previously published item), especially given who the creator is. My guess is that they renamed this for marketing purposes, because the original title was a bit odd. It would, however, have been nice to put some reference to the original trick in the ad copy. Does he mention the original in the download?


No mention of the original title or source in the download. Many magicians have responded to the Penguin Q&A section regarding purchased products. It seems to be about 50-50 in that some see no problem with the practice and others who find it a underhanded sales technique.

I'll be interested to here the creators rationale in a few weeks [smile].
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #21 
Changing a trick's name and selling a video without stating it was in the book is shady. But another thought came to mind when reading this. I find it interesting that people will pay $10.00 for a single trick download and others balk at paying $40.00 for a book full of effects. Let's say the book had 20 tricks in it, that is $2.00 per trick. Interesting.

What the magician should do is release the video and add something to make it worthwhile for book purchasers to by the download. But be honest about prior publication.
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Evan S.

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Reply with quote  #22 
Curious, Dan... did you ask the question?
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Waterman

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan S.
Curious, Dan... did you ask the question?


I did not...
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Intensely Magic

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Reply with quote  #24 
I guess, actually, I know, that I'm not as good a person as many of you guys. I'm totally unwilling to forgive and forget when I've been deceived purposefully by shady advertising. Believe me, when a product is reissued or excerpted from a book or DVD, you are being purposely deceived if it is not clearly mentioned in the advertising. A simple sentence or two is all that it takes.

I know they are reissuing some individual items from Dean Dill's DVDs and just thought I would check on th Hocus Pocus site to see how they are presented. Here's an example:

Coins, Glass and Silk (excerpt from Extreme Dean #2) by Dean Dill - video DOWNLOAD

Straightforward and no ambiguities. It's right in the title. Honesty isn't that difficult and I doubt it hurts sales.

I've said enough on this matter.

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Hal

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Reply with quote  #25 
I would not feel stupid nor should you. I offer magic tutorials and videos online and my personal values are centered on integrity and the lifetime value of a client. I feel someone comes to my website as a customer/shopper and I hope they become a lifetime client and friend over time.

I have and always will take the consumers side/point of view in a discrepancy. My goal is raving fans I hate that these things happen to me and it makes me cringe every time I hear of such instances even when they happen at other websites or even at retailers around town.

Being fair and honest in dealing with customers is actually easy and it's free 😉 I cannot do business any other way.... I suppose some take the shortcut to garnering a sale.  Can it be in 2019 that integrity and honesty is a competitive advantage? Sadly, yes.
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