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Rudy Tinoco

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Reply with quote  #1 
I've already memorized the Tamariz stack using one of Harry's memory systems but was curious about what these folks had to say about using mnemonics to memorize the stack.

It's a well written book with pretty illustration that I'm sure could help someone memorize a deck of cards.

They have basically created a visual memory path of 26 images (Path Locations) that are used as a set of pegs that you use in combination with another set of images that represent the playing cards.

I don't mean to give too much away, but each Path Location is broken up into four quadrants that represent clubs, hearts, spades, and diamonds.

The way that you lay out these playing cards (in your mind) at these Path Locations and in those quadrants is how you're able to remember them stack.

I tried it and it makes sense, but I find Harry's system to be far easier.

Some of the images that they ask you to create in your mind, in my opinion, were a little challenging (not impossible) to imagine. For instance, how would you picture a "screaming banshee" or a "shrew" (pictured as a person), a "winch"?

That wasn't really the problem for me though. What I had some difficulty getting my mind around was how there are only 26 path locations. To memorize the Tamariz stack (or any stack) each path location holds the location of two cards. Because of that, there is some math involved whenever you're locating a card. 

They say, "If you do plan to use this stack to its fullest potential you will want to be able to name any card by stack-location, or any stack-location by card. With some simple mental math, you will be able to mentally find cards with ease."

I pretty much stopped reading the book at that point.

With Harry's memory tools, you don't need to do any math to locate a card. You just know where it is. In my opinion, why complicate things?

I was also a bit surprised that in a book about memory there was no mention of Harry Lorayne.

They mention Simonides, Gregor von Feinaigle and a few others in their references at the end, but nothing about Harry. That's odd to me.

Harry shared in another post (somewhere here on the forum) that some doctor wrote something in the Times where he said that, "to not even mention the name of the recognized modern master mnemonist (and other alliterations) is like discussing the General Theory of Relativity without mentioning Albert Einstein."

I agree.

Anyway, this book has some good stuff in it and maybe if I hadn't learned Harry's stuff first, it may have helped me. Fortunately, I DID read Harry's stuff first and I'm glad that I did.

Rudy

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andymakar

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Reply with quote  #2 
I also picked up the Memory Arts Fundamentals and I really liked the image / card reinforcement.
I found the graphics useful in remembering 1) Tower, 2) Swan 3) Mountains 4) Hand 5) Waterfall 6) Whirpool, etc.

I learned the stack the cold / brute force way first and have added the Memory Arts approach to reinforce it.
Example: Queen of Heard and Queen of Clubs are 17 and 18 in the Ireland Stack and are huddled in the 9th card the Cave.

However, I just know 17 and 18 are these cards because of working with the stack in my hands.  I found holding the deck and running the cards is much more useful than the various apps on the smartphone market.  (I like a number of these apps but I still find the tactical approach holding a deck helps me).
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Rudy Tinoco

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Reply with quote  #3 
Thanks Andy. I think that this book could be helpful to those who may not have been exposed to Harry's work.

I truly believe that his methods are much easier than what I saw in Memory Arts.

We all have to find what works for us. I'm glad you enjoyed it and found it useful.

Take care,

Rudy

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TribecaJames

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Reply with quote  #4 
I also purchased the Memory arts fundamentals. (Tamariz edition)
I really liked it, something about the visuals really registered with me. I also changed some of the example ones they gave to fit my style.

I would like to check out Harry Lorayne's method for this as well. Can someone point me in the right direction as to what book this is in?

Thanks in advance.
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Rudy Tinoco

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Reply with quote  #5 
Here you go, TribecaJames...

http://harryloraynemagic.com/store/c5/Memory_Products.html

Rudy

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Harry Lorayne

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Reply with quote  #6 
   I had posted some of my thoughts on the subject but I think they've been deleted. Okay - I did have one too many martinis at my late lunch!!!!   (On the other hand, my remarks might just have been helpful to many.)
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TribecaJames

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Reply with quote  #7 
Thanks all, super helpful!
J
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synapse

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Reply with quote  #8 
I used Harry's works to memorise the Tamariz stack (the same as Rudy), but I also used the method in the Memory Arts Fundamentals book to memorise all the works of Shakespeare (in one of the possibile chronological orders). Both methods work fine for me and for both if I don't revisit them every now and then, then retrieval of the information is slower.

As far as using mathematics goes in locating a card, I don't think that is an issue if it is the only method used. When combining it with memorisation it may be inferior/less effective than Harry's method described in his book, unless the memory work is very easy and the maths is easy (and the magician can compute fast enough). With that said, there are people that use a mathematical stack but learn that off using memorisation. I'd have to side with Rudy in that since I used Harry's method already, I wouldn't use the Memory Arts Book (for the Tamariz stack at least). I might still get the Aronson version of the book so I can learn both stacks.
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Rudy Tinoco

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by synapse
I'd have to side with Rudy in that since I used Harry's method already, I wouldn't use the Memory Arts Book (for the Tamariz stack at least). I might still get the Aronson version of the book so I can learn both stacks.


I'm impressed that you are going to memorize the Aronson stack too. I've been tempted to memorize a different stack, but haven't made the jump yet.

I originally memorized the Tamariz stack because you could shuffle into it from NDO and then back again.
Unfortunately, it was only after I memorized the stack that I learned that the procedure for getting back into new deck order required the dealing of two packets onto the table by performing a (in my opinion) weak trick.

I'm working on an effect called "Poker Formulas" by Pit Hartling that is stack dependent and very powerful enough that I'm sticking with the Tamariz stack for now.

As for using Memory Arts to memorize another stack, I think that all anyone would ever need to memorize a stack (or anything else for that matter) can be done with Harry's systems alone. But to each his own [smile]

Rudy


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Harry Lorayne

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Reply with quote  #10 
         Please!!!  What nonsense (in my professional opinion). Using math?! Please! And I'm told not one mention of me. As someone once wrote to the Times - "...writing about memory training and not mentioning Harry Lorayne is like writing about the theory of relativity without mentioning Albert Einstein!"

        Read this quickly - before it's deleted!!
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Harry Lorayne

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Reply with quote  #11 
        I've written this a number of times in a number of places (in my "rememoire", BEFORE I FORGET) - so it will be redundant/repetitive to many, but ---

      I explaining what I call a pivot point in my life. I was doing table magic in The Little Club in NYC. I was about 19 years old and thought that card magic would be my livelihood for life. Actor Victor Jory came in with different friends many times. He wanted me to do my "regular stuff" for his friends but I always did at least one item that he hadn't seen before.

      Problem was - I was running out of card stuff to show him. I had been interested in memory stuff for years, mainly with cards. So, although to me it was like scraping the bottom of the barrel, and since I had nothing else to do for him, I decided to do the card memory thing for him - the routine I'd been doing for a while. Like this:

      I had him shuffle the deck and them call off the cards, keeping them in order, quite rapidly. Then - he'd give me a number between 1 and 52 and I immediately told him the card at that position. Did that a few times, then had him name any card - he'd say, for example, "Eight of hearts," and I'd immediately say "29th card" - and it was. Did that a few times. Then the ending "kicker":

       Asked if he played poker. "Yes." Asked for the best poker hand - "Royal Flush."  He said "Spades." I said - "12th, 32nd, 38th, 43rd, 45th." He checked those positions to find the royal flush in spades. I'd love to see this done using the "math" thing.

        Incidentally - it was a pivot point in my life because Mr. Jory stood up and exclaimed - "Harry, the sleight of hand you've done for me and my friends over the past month was/is terrific (etc. etc.) but - what you just did....! And he went on to rave about the memory thing. The mental light bulb came on!!

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Harry Lorayne

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Reply with quote  #12 
       Another thing I've written about a few times - I do not use a prepared memdeck - never have. One of the reasons being that I didn't know about them when I was soooo young and doing memory stuff with cards. The other reasons: Cards are always shuffled by spectator during prior work and most often do not use my own deck.

     So, what I used to do (haven't bothered for decades because - I can do just as strong, if not stronger, stuff without using any memory setups) is excuse myself to use the bathroom and casually take the cards with me (remember; I was very young!). And - I'd memorize the shuffled deck in the bathroom!! (In a minute or so.) Again; wonder if that could be done with "math" stuff?
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culldavid

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Reply with quote  #13 
The stack i use is the one where you,from new deck order,give 5 faro shuffles and the cards do appear to be mixed up.To get the deck into new deck order again,all you have to is give 3 more faro shuffles and they are back in order.
For memorizing from a shuffled deck i use Harry Lorayne mnemonics.
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Kingman

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Reply with quote  #14 
Well, let me preface this by saying that I know Dave and Sarah. We are in the same Ring in NC. Their daughter and mine play together at the meetings. I have the Memory Arts and was able to lock in place the Aronson stack in about four days. I have tired the 'peg' system and just couldn't get it to stick. And I have tried many times over my years in magic. I could not get it to work for me. I can now name any card's location, tell you the location of a whole suit, in order or not, any suit.
Their system is not a peg system, it is a memory path and uses very strong images. To me having the images, all fine artwork by Dave, made it nothing for me to learn the Aronson stack. I can also tell you that their 12 year old son has four stacks memorized with their technique. He has demonstrated it at some of our meetings and local conventions. I don't need four stacks personally, but it is dang amazing to see him pull out names of a card from different stacks. Anyways, my this is my opinion, but to me the book made something possible that I had not as yet been able to accomplish in my magical career.
And Harry, I know Dave likes you and your magic, I think you mentioned that you were not mentioned in the book, I believe that is simply a different method than your peg method to me anyways, so they mentioned some others that were involved in the older history. So no disrespect from Dave and Sarah I'm sure.
So get the book if you want a nice quality book that I know makes it amazingly quick to lock in a memorized deck. And it is a quality book, Great binding and design and nice glossy pages.
book.jpg 


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Harry Lorayne

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Reply with quote  #15 

        As someone once wrote to the NY Times - "Talking about memory training in ANY way, shape, manner or form without mentioning Harry Lorayne is like talking about the theory of relativity without mentioning Albert Einstein!"  Some ensuing remarks were things like - "Well, if that 'piece' about the theory of relativity doesn't mention Einstein it obviously can't be anywhere - nowhere - as good or important as Einstein's work on the subject!"

        Interesting that you know them, Kingman.

     Sorry you couldn't apply my systems,. Kingman - too bad. I used to have 10, 11 and12-year-old kids demonstrate it at the first lesson of my memory-training classes when I was running the Harry Lorayne School of Memory back in the sixties. And if you go to harrylorayne.com, which is about my MEMORY POWER COURSE, one of the testimonials is from Bob Norland, who had a stroke in his 70s - was told his memory would never be any good any more --- read one of my books, and his memory is now 100 TIMES BETTER than it was before the stroke. Does memory demonstrations for his clubs, and etc.

       So, so sorry that you couldn't apply my systems...But fortunately about twenty million people all over the world, who've read, and learned, the techniques, methods, systems, I teach in HOW TO DEVELOP A SUPER-POWER MEMORY (1956), SECRETS OF MIND POWER, MEMORY MAKES MONEY, SUPER MEMORY-SUPER STUDENT! ...THE MEMORY BOOK, PAGE-A-MINUTE MEMORY BOOK, AGELESS MEMORY ... which are published in about 12 different languages (that I know of)  apply it easily and always ---

among those twenty million - people like Alan Alda, Mel Brooks, Anne Bancroft, Mayor Mike Bloomberg, Ex. Police Commissioner Ray Kelly (and his son, Greg, who has demonstrated it - MENTIONING MY NAME - on TV quite often), Dick Cavett, Sir Anthony Hopkins, and on and on - including quite a few known politicians who'd rather not make it known because if they did, they'd never be able to say "I don't remember" at a Senate hearing, or whatever!

       Oh, and aside from myself - who did it when I was in my 'teens - I know a few card guys who - after learning my systems for cards - can "lock in" -- that is, memorize the position of every card in a shuffled deck "amazingly quick" - in about five minutes!!

       

     

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Harry Lorayne

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Reply with quote  #16 
        What happened here is - I saw the current post and responded above without checking the rest of the thread. Well; it just dawned on me to check the "rest of the thread" and I realize, of course, that there's a bit of repetition in my current response. But that's okay - some of those thoughts should be repeated and stressed. Suggest you read it all - like Rudy's thoughts:

     "I pretty much stopped reading the book at that point. With Harry's memory tools, you don't need to do any math to locate a card. You just know where it is. In my opinion, why complicate things?

"I was also a bit surprised that in a book about memory there was no mention of Harry Lorayne.
They mention Simonides, Gregor von Feinaigle and a few others in their references at the end, but nothing about Harry. That's odd to me. ("Ain't odd t me, Rudy.")"

     Anyway, forgive the repetition, guys - but I think I'd probably do it again!!


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Kingman

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Reply with quote  #17 
it's not just 'your method' but any peg system. I just have never been able to get them to stick. For some reason, the story form really clicked for me personally. I have no doubts about you methods. I have seen them work. I have read the book and there is no math. So I am not sure what he means, but I learned the stack in four days and I did not have to learn any math. Just had to learn a story with 52 locations.Believe me, you don't have to sell me on your stuff. It is not mistake that I have a pretty full shelf devoted to the Lorayne magic. But it shouldn't stop me from reviewing a book that I found to be entertaining, well written, and for me, quite productive.
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Harry Lorayne

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Reply with quote  #18 
         Fine; happy for you.
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Intensely Magic

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingman
it's not just 'your method' but any peg system. I just have never been able to get them to stick. For some reason, the story form really clicked for me personally. I have no doubts about you methods. I have seen them work. I have read the book and there is no math. So I am not sure what he means, but I learned the stack in four days and I did not have to learn any math. Just had to learn a story with 52 locations.Believe me, you don't have to sell me on your stuff. It is not mistake that I have a pretty full shelf devoted to the Lorayne magic. But it shouldn't stop me from reviewing a book that I found to be entertaining, well written, and for me, quite productive.


If you use the original 26 place method, there is math. Not so with the newer 52 place approach.

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Robin Dawes

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Reply with quote  #20 
Kingman, I appreciated your review.

My teaching career has taught me that different people have different learning styles.  There is no all-powerful teaching technique that renders all others pointless.  In the end it comes down to the individual student identifying and building on what works for them. 
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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Dawes
Kingman, I appreciated your review.

My teaching career has taught me that different people have different learning styles.  There is no all-powerful teaching technique that renders all others pointless.  In the end it comes down to the individual student identifying and building on what works for them. 


Circle gets the Square.


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Dave Campbell

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Reply with quote  #22 
I read Harry's "How to Develop a Super-Power Memory" when I was still in college. I used it to learn the Aronson Stack when it first came out. I got away from magic for a while and when I came back, I didn't remember the stack, but I remembered Harry's system!

Spin forward to The Memory Arts and Redford Stack hitting close to each other. I got the first 2 Memory Arts books and while it IS interesting, I kept getting lost in the imagery and then there was the 26-card thing.

So I fell back on what I knew and learned the Redford Stack using Harry's pegs.

Not everything is for everybody, but I explained a couple of the peg-card relationships to my son-in-law who is NOT a magician or a memory master, but he immediately caught on and thought it all made great sense.

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