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Jack Bear

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Reply with quote  #1 
Hi fellow Card Sharps,

I've noticed that the Hindu Shuffle force has become one of the go to forces in the card magic world, but it seems to me that most folks are doing a terrible version of it. The Hindu Shuffle force that I learned as a youngster, was set up with the card you want to force on the top of the deck. Then you started the shuffle by cutting a largish portion off the top of the deck and as you go for the next bunch of cards off the top you simultaneously grab a small chunk of the first packet that you just placed into the receiving hand and keep this packet (with the force card on the top of it) at the ready under the cards in your hand that is holding the bulk of the deck, and then, when the spectator calls stop, you time it so that this packet gets dropped last of all. This looks so much more convincing, and is done completely under cover, and so doesn't look at all suspicious.
But the way I see it being done by most folks these days is by having the force card on the bottom, and then when the spectator calls stop, they just simply show this bottom card!  I'm always amazed that people get fooled by it, as it seems so obvious that it's a force, and I sometimes wonder: 'Are all the people being fooled by it'?, or are they being polite and just letting the magician carry on with the trick?!!! lol.

Any thoughts anyone?

Jack.
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Harry Lorayne

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Reply with quote  #2 
The way you describe doing the HF I taught in one (or more) of my books decades ago.
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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #3 
John Cornelius had an idea for the force of the bottom card. He'd pull a small packet from the bottom onto his LH and flash the bottom card of the RH packet. He'd repeat this several time, each time showing a different bottom card. The force card remained on the bottom since the order of the deck hasn't changed. Then he'd go into the HS Force of the bottom card, having shown that the card changes each time. 

Mike
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Jack Bear

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Reply with quote  #4 
Hi Harry,

It could well have been one of your books that I learned it from way back in the mid sixties, and if it was ... then 'Thank You'!  It's one of the greatest weapons I have in my arsenal.

Jack.
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Jack Bear

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Reply with quote  #5 
Mike,

I just tried that John Cornelius method, and that works fine. But I'm Going to stick with the way Harry taught it.  I'm too old to change things up now, plus, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!  But the method you described is much better than the way I've seen people doing it as described in my original post. I like it.

Jack.
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JohnnyNewYork

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Reply with quote  #6 
Jack - I’ve been toying with a slightly different approach to the HS force (probably explored before, I’m sure). I begin with a tabled deck as if to Riffle Shuffle (forcing the bottom card, which I’’ve secretly peeked earlier). With RH, I pull/slide out the bottom 2/3's of deck, but instead of completing a cut and simply placing it on top of the remaining tabled cards, I perform a series of running cuts with only a few cards each time (as a very small group of cards) off of the TOP of the RH packet -- actually the packet is more or less held stationary in the LH and the RH pulls/slides 2/3's of the bottom cards of the packet away, leaving the LH to drop the remaining small group of cards it is holding onto the tabled portion of the tabled deck. I do this rather deliberately - I want everyone to see that cards are being pulled off of the TOP of the packet in my RH. When the spec says “stop”, my LH casually pulls out a few cards from the BOTTOM of the RH packet and shows the face of the packet held in my LH to the spec (the force card) as my my RH moves its packet away, mimicking the previous motion of the running cuts (it should appear as if I've just pulled another small group of cards off of the top of the packet).  I then drop the LH packet on top of the tabled cards, finally dropping the remaining cards in the RH on top of everything. The force card is lost in the deck, but I know what it is and continue from there. I guess it is a “tabled” HS force, but I feel a little more confident using this approach. Hope my description makes sense - good luck - johnny
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MagicTK

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Reply with quote  #7 
I like that description Jack.  I will have to apply this next time I use the HS for a force.

It's better than the way I typically do it which is, with the card on the top and flip the deck over, taking small groups of cards off so they see the faces of many cards.  Then they say stop whenever they want, and then flip over the RH pack so they take the top card.  So far I've gotten away with it, but I like this variation.

Johnny's description is very good too.

Tom
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Bulla

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Reply with quote  #8 
I actually really like the hindu force and I use Slydini's handling of it 
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Bob Farmer

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Reply with quote  #9 
Bulla: That looks great. It really sells the idea that the card is from the middle of the deck.

The force I use the most, because it is so versatile, is my variation of Gary Ouellet’s “Touch Force.”

The card to be forced is on the bottom of the deck.

Cut about a third of the deck to the bottom and hold a break with the left little finger.

Spread the cards into the right hand, still holding the break.

Ask the spectator to touch (not take) any card. Use your left thumb to indicate the selection (“That one?”) but then use it to tap the cards on either side (“Or do you want that one or that one?”). Or you can ask him to say, “Stop,” as you spread the cards.

As soon as a card is decided upon, injog it and square the deck sideways into your left hand as you simultaneously push the injog square and cut at the break raising the broken cards to show the bottom card (the force card).

 

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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #10 
Bob - I thought the card was outjogged?? Then you can begin to push everything above the break forward a bit as you square the outjogged card with the right fingers and continue forward, ultimately raising the packet to show the bottom card.

Mike
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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #11 
Hmm, same here, Mike. He did say it was his variation, and while it does work beautifully, it does seem strange to me to injog, rather than outjog, the selection. Perhaps Bob will pop back in to 'splain his reasoning.

I haven't used the Hindu shuffle force in years. My favorite is John Bannon's Christ Cross Force. It's a beauty. Either top or bottom cards can be easily forced, and the handling is so fair-looking and deceptive that it still sometimes fools me.

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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Farmer
Bulla: That looks great. It really sells the idea that the card is from the middle of the deck.

The force I use the most, because it is so versatile, is my variation of Gary Ouellet’s “Touch Force.”

The card to be forced is on the bottom of the deck.

Cut about a third of the deck to the bottom and hold a break with the left little finger.

Spread the cards into the right hand, still holding the break.

Ask the spectator to touch (not take) any card. Use your left thumb to indicate the selection (“That one?”) but then use it to tap the cards on either side (“Or do you want that one or that one?”). Or you can ask him to say, “Stop,” as you spread the cards.

As soon as a card is decided upon, injog it and square the deck sideways into your left hand as you simultaneously push the injog square and cut at the break raising the broken cards to show the bottom card (the force card).

Yes, this is a great force.  John Carey posted a tabled "Touch Force" variation using a breather the other day.  Worth looking at as it is similar but different.

 

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Michaelblue

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Reply with quote  #13 
As for the hindu shuffle force, i do it like a running cut. Force card on t he bottom and you do a running cut and ask someone to say stop. When they do, you stop and show them the card on the bottom of the top half and just place the halves together.
Hope that makes sense.
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Michaelblue

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Reply with quote  #14 
As for the hindu shuffle force, i do it like a running cut. Force card on t he bottom and you do a running cut and ask someone to say stop. When they do, you stop and show them the card on the bottom of the top half and just place the halves together.
Hope that makes sense.
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Bob Farmer

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Reply with quote  #15 
Here's why the injog is better: it prevents the audience from catching an accidental flash of the card. This can happen if you are standing and the audience is sitting. Gary Ouellet preferred this version to his original. You can also do this with the cards face up to switch a card.

The other advantage of this force is you can not only force a card but a force a card with a different back color than the deck. This is particularly deceptive because they touch the back of, say, a blue card in a blue deck but get the force card which has a different colored back. I've used this a lot.


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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #16 
Thanks, Bob, for the clarification. I'm going to play around with the concept.

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Robin Dawes

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Reply with quote  #17 
Outjog vs. injog ... I suspect that to non-magicians the difference is neglible.  There's nothing inherently more suspicious about injogs - the performer's level of tension is far more likely to ring warning bells.
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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #18 
Fair point, Robin. It's hard not to think like a magician sometimes! At least for me.

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Bob Farmer

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Reply with quote  #19 
I've used this a lot and no one has ever questioned the procedure. I think it's because you give them options on which card they want.
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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #20 
Thanks Bob! I'll try out the injog method. 


Mike
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Dawes
Outjog vs. injog ... I suspect that to non-magicians the difference is neglible.  There's nothing inherently more suspicious about injogs - the performer's level of tension is far more likely to ring warning bells.



Robin, I agree and I would go further and state that in reality, from the spectator's point of view, the card is UPJOGGED, so to them it probably looks normal.
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Jack Bear

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Reply with quote  #22 

Some great responses hear people, and even some great footage too. Much appreciated.

I think that perhaps I didn't get my point across well enough in my original post, so I'll have another shot.

Mostly, when I see magicians using the HSF in a trick, it kind of goes like this:

Magician: 'I'm going to get you to pick a card, so you tell me when to stop'. (or words to that effect) ... and then starts cutting small packets off the deck at a pretty fast rate of speed. (The faster the better these days it seems)

Spectator: (doesn't have time to think the following: 'Am I supposed to be waiting for him/her to reach a certain part of the deck that I want my selection from? ... 'And when I call stop, am I supposed to be looking at the top card of the portion that he/she just dropped onto their hand, or is it the top card of the pile they still have in their other hand'? ... consequently, they just call out stop at some arbitrary point, not even knowing why)...... ''Stop'

Magician: 'Ok, Take a look at this card and remember it' ..... Shows spectator a card, usually the bottom card, as I have mentioned in my original post.

So it's my understanding that the magician expects that the average spectator will not have a clue as to what just happened. They will have had no idea which part of the deck they were looking to stop at, and they will be expected to accept the fact that whatever card that the magician tells them to look at is the one they called stop at. And they will just have to believe that it was a free choice. In other words, the spectator has just been rushed through a procedure that they didn't really understand, in order for a selection to be arrived at.

Now let's think about this another way.
Imagine that the above example of the HSF was done with a tabled deck. The magician would have cut off small packets from the deck and tabled them one on top of another as they came off, and then when the spectator calls 'stop' the magician turns the talon face up and tells the spectator 'Remember this card'!!! ... Crazy or what! ... but that is exactly how lots of people are doing it! ... just not on the table, but in their hands.

The point that I'm trying to make here is the absurdity of this method.

Now on the other hand, the method that I learned, (many Moons ago) (which I am given to understand is the same method tought by Harry Lorayne in one or more of his books decades ago) is far superior in that it looks totally normal, and the selection is made from a logical position in the deck as dictated by the spectator.

So let's look at this version as if it were performed with a tabled deck:

The magician cuts off packets from the deck placing them one on top of another as in the previous example, and when the spectator calls stop, it is the next top card of the talon that becomes the selected card! ... Now that makes sense to me.

I hope I'm getting my thoughts across clearly here.

Jack.

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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #23 
Jack, I think we totally understood what you were saying.  The classic Hindu force is still effective for most spectators, especially if you shuffle first.  They don't know you can secretly glimpse the bottom card.  And most spectators think when you cut the deck you are mixing the entire thing up.  Remember, as you point out, they DON'T know what you are going to do.  So when they say stop, you could give them the TOP card.  Or you could give them a choice of the top or bottom, they don't know.  You certainly could do it that way and if they choose the bottom, continue on.  If they choose the top, then complete the cut and you know their card is under the sighted card.

You have to know your audience.  If they are used to watching magic, then the HSF is probably not the best choice. 

I don't think the method is absurd.  Certainly not the best force, but not absurd. 

Since there are 1001 ways to force a card, choose another.
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rready

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Reply with quote  #24 
I posted this in another thread which is another variation of the Touch Force.
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rready

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Reply with quote  #25 
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Bob Farmer

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Reply with quote  #26 
Not crazy about that variation--it looks jerky, too many moves, not smooth. 
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Jack Bear

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Reply with quote  #27 
Anyone here think that this is the correct way to do the Hindu Shuffle Force?

 




This is tantamount to asking a spectator to cut the deck anywhere they like and to look at the bottom card of the talon! .... I mean . come on!


There are hundreds of Youtube videos just like this one, and they are all teaching this force incorrectly. This just simply isn't the correct way! it is awful!

I find it dismaying that some of you actually support this terrible method of using the HS to force a card.

However, if done correctly, the HSF is a gem, and looks perfectly normal, and doesn't insult one's intelligence.

Jack.

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Bulla

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Reply with quote  #28 
To be fair they're teaching it straight out of Royal Road. I agree completely that it isn't the "ideal" way to handle the force but at the same time I don't think it's insulting a person's intelligence. You have to keep in mind the area that you're from. In the western world most people are unfamiliar with a Hindu shuffle. I'm from Hawaii and it's very culturally diverse here so the Hindu shuffle is actually quite common. But in most other states it's not a shuffle that is seen often which is why it tends to work more than it should.
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Jack Bear

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Reply with quote  #29 
Bulla

Hi,
When i say 'insulting one's intelligence'  it's just another way of saying that the person performing this terrible version of the HSF is expecting the spectator to be duped by a blatantly obvious and ill performed card sleight, which imo judging by the performance given in the above uploaded video, isn't a sleight at all. And It beggars belief that this is the way it is taught in the 'Royal Road'   If you're going to teach someone something, then teach them correctly.

If I were to toss a coin into the air and say 'Heads I win, and Tails you lose'! .. would that insult your intelligence? Basically, that is what's going on here! only with playing cards,as opposed to a coin.

I wish I had the facilities to film myself doing it the proper way, I'd upload it in a jiffy! .. but unfortunately, I am restricted to the written word only. However, I will upload a detailed set of instructions on how to perform the HSF correctly if anyone asks me to. ... I'm prepared to put my money where my mouth is. Lol.

Jack.
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #30 
Jack, I think you made your point. This is a friendly forum. We don't challenge opinions here. You've expressed yours clearly and some disagree as is their right.

Time to move on. The HSF and its effectiveness isn't worth this much scrutiny, IMO.
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Jack Bear

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Reply with quote  #31 
RayJ

Thanks for your opinion ... as far as I can tell, I am being friendly.  Which part of anything I've said do you consider unfriendly ... Please explain.

Jack.
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #32 
Jack, it boils down to tone. You seem really passionate about this to the point of " being prepared to put your money where your mouth is." That comes off as an unecessary challenge. Many of us here are either working professionals or former pros. We get your point.

There are much better forces than the traditional HSF. Even the modified one you mentioned. At the end of the day folks use what works for them.
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Jack Bear

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Reply with quote  #33 
RayJ

You've made several comments in here that have been negative and slightly hostile towards me. It appears that you have elected yourself as chairman of this thread. I'm enjoying exchanging thoughts and ideas with other users in this thread, and could well do without your constant bickering. If you don't like what is being said in this topic, then please just go elsewhere, ... why do you keep coming back here?

Jack.
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Bear
RayJ

You've made several comments in here that have been negative and slightly hostile towards me. It appears that you have elected yourself as chairman of this thread. I'm enjoying exchanging thoughts and ideas with other users in this thread, and could well do without your constant bickering. If you don't like what is being said in this topic, then please just go elsewhere, ... why do you keep coming back here?

Jack.


I think I'll hang around thank you.
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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #35 
Hey, guys, let's lighten up, huh? Opinions are always welcome, vitriol, not so much. Thanks.

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Jack Bear

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Reply with quote  #36 
Anthony,
Duly noted!  and taken on board! ... Thanks. 

Jack.
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magicfish

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Reply with quote  #37 
The handling in the clip above could be executed after a couple centre Hindus. Do a centre hindu, stop, show the bottom card . Do another quick one. Show a different bottom card.
They see that the bottom card is different each time- now let's try it for real, and into the traditional hindu force .
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rready

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Reply with quote  #38 
I just picked up on eBay Lewis Jones Encyclopedia of Impromptu Forces. Can't wait to dig into that.
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culldavid

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Reply with quote  #39 
Here is an easy force which i use sometimes.I will put an explanation in the session room also although it is quite eady to work out.
Thankyou



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Jack Bear

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Reply with quote  #40 
culldavid,

Impressive!  That looked very honest.

Jack.


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