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Buffalo McKinley

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Reply with quote  #1 
Hello!

I've been practicing the Retention Vanish based on this tutorial at the Russian Genius' website, So far, so good, but I was wondering if anyone has any tips on really making the effect the best it can be?   I've found that with many (if not all) sleights that little adjustments have a big impact.

Also, any recommendations on the best way to make the coin reappear?

Thanks in advance!

-Buffalo

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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #2 
Did not view the vid.

A nice retention vanish is a beautiful thing to behold. I thought, at one time, that I had a nice one. Then I showed it to David Roth at a convention. He tore it apart. Rightly and properly, but still... He admonished me about the telling index finger "knuckle pop" when I pretended to place the coin in my left hand, and told me to practice till it disappeared.

The retention of vision aspect is caused by a combination of the metal and reflected light. Shiny coins are best.  

One thing: retention vanishes must still be motivated and in-transit. In addition to working on a smooth, shiny transfer, consider as well what happens next.

Honestly, I think plain old false transfers work better than retention vanishes 8 or 9 times out of ten. But maybe that's just me.

Can you post a brief video of your work in progress in The Refinery? There are several outstanding coin guys hanging around here who might be able to "Roth" you!

Best of luck with the move,

Av 
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Bob Farmer

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Reply with quote  #3 
The video is wrong: the taking hand must not move--if it moves it destroys the retention image. Lock the taking hand down.
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David

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Reply with quote  #4 
There are many ways to do the retention vanish. For example the one you are working on. You just keep on and on it until it is smooth and natural looking. Video yourself doing it and occasionally actually put the coin in the hand and see what the differences are and then eliminate them. As far as making it appear again you could get that coin in your right hand into a finger palm and then figure out where you want it to reappear.
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Steven Youell

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Reply with quote  #5 
Best retention vanish I've ever seen is Andru Luvisi's.
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David

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Reply with quote  #6 
Haven’t seen it. But would love to. What I have seen is Mickey Silver would be awfully hard to beat
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magicfish

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Reply with quote  #7 
Buffalo, does the man in the video give credit for the move or explain the history of the move? What are his credentials and by what authority does he teach the move? Is this a public video? Just some questions to ask when watching any magic exposure on youtube.
This is not the Retention of Vision Vanish.
Seek out the works of David Roth for the real work on this sleight.

Or...the expertise of some of our esteemed TMF members . It is a beautiful move when properly done . (Dont tell John Carney)😊
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Robin Dawes

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Reply with quote  #8 
My "David Roth" moment came from Pat Page.  He didn't tear down my ROV vanish (though he could have, since it was pretty raw) - he just taught me a completely different handling that up-ended all of my thinking on the sleight.
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RayJ

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The "Russian Genius" is one the worst offenders on youtube.  His videos should not be promoted anywhere.  

Having said that, if you want my input I will say that what he is doing isn't a ROV vanish at all but actually a hybrid of an ROV and a "fake take".  He doesn't pause at all on the take.  With a shiny coin, when you pause, holding the coin with as much of its surface exposed, you get the infamous "burn" where you think you see the coin in the left hand as the right hand moves away.  I saw Roth lecture and sat in the front row and I can tell you there were times when he did it that I would swear there was 6" to 8" of space between his hands and I could see the coin in his LH.  It didn't happen every single time he did it but when all was in sync, it was a sight to behold.
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luvisi

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Youell
Best retention vanish I've ever seen is Andru Luvisi's.


That was a long time ago, but thank you.

Personally, the best descriptions I have seen are the one in volume one of The Vernon Chronicles and the one in Greater Magic (also reprinted in Modern Coin Magic). The one in Expert Coin Magic is also very good.

In my opinion, two of the most important points are keeping the left fingers straight as they fold upward, to provide the maximum cover possible, and not making the right hand movement until you feel the left fingers touch the back of the right fingers, to make sure that the motion does not occur until it is properly covered.

Best of luck!

Andru
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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #11 
Mickey Silver - what he says at the end is true.



Mike
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Buffalo McKinley

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Reply with quote  #12 
Mike Powers, that is amazing.  I have no idea how he could possibly palm the coin in his right hand, since he appears to be placing the coin in his left hand with the tips of his fingers.

Also, there appears to be space between the fingers of his right hand.

Absolutely amazing.

-Buffalo
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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #13 
I've seen Mickey live and it looks exactly like the video. The coin was never in his left hand. He makes it seem to be there at will. I'll see if I can find the video of him doing the coin eating. 

Mike
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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #14 
The best part starts at 3:29. He overdoes the first two minutes. I'd recommend watching a minute then skipping to 3:29 for the good stuff.



Mike
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Tom G

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Reply with quote  #15 
When I took some lessons from Roth, gave advise that can work with learning a bunch of moves.  This is when he was talking about the retention vanish.  Basically the move is putting a coin from one hand into your other hand.  Soooo, just do that move and study what it looks like in a mirror. Many times.  Then work on making the retention look the same.  Also, doing one real put, followed up with the steal and they should look the same.
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalo McKinley
Mike Powers, that is amazing.  I have no idea how he could possibly palm the coin in his right hand, since he appears to be placing the coin in his left hand with the tips of his fingers.

Also, there appears to be space between the fingers of his right hand.

Absolutely amazing.

-Buffalo


Buffalo, in the typical ROV vanish the coin is at the extreme fingertips but your thumb is behind and contacting most of the surface of the coin. The "burn" that helps the illusion is best when using shiny coins and when as much of the coin is visible as possible. Hence the extreme grip. You wouldn't ordinarily hold a coin that way.
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Buffalo McKinley

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Reply with quote  #17 
Thanks everyone for the great advice!  I read everyone's comments and definitely appreciate the insights.

When moving the coin into finger palm, there is a little movement of my ring finger, as I secure the coin.  I'm trying to eliminate that movement, but am I being too obsessive?  It seems you can really drive yourself nuts trying to get everything perfect with sleight of hand.

I'm a bit of a perfectionist, which means I frequently waste a lot of time improving things that no one would notice.

"The best is the enemy of the good."
 -Voltaire
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalo McKinley
Thanks everyone for the great advice!  I read everyone's comments and definitely appreciate the insights.

When moving the coin into finger palm, there is a little movement of my ring finger, as I secure the coin.  I'm trying to eliminate that movement, but am I being too obsessive?  It seems you can really drive yourself nuts trying to get everything perfect with sleight of hand.

I'm a bit of a perfectionist, which means I frequently waste a lot of time improving things that no one would notice.

"The best is the enemy of the good."
 -Voltaire


Fingers move.  You can't eliminate all movement but certainly you can try to minimize it.
AV talked about the telltale "knuckle pop" of the index finger.  One of the things Vernon used to focus on was the "hinging" of the left fingers, providing cover.  In some descriptions, the fingers are said to "curl" but Vernon was adamant about the fingers "hinging" at the base, leaving the fingers fairly straight.  They provide a nice screen that way.

Roth also commented that the "move" takes place after the fingers bend and there doesn't seem to be enough room in which to accomplish it.

Be aware that while a cool ROV impresses us magicians, the audience shouldn't know anything other than a coin was placed into the other hand.
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Buffalo McKinley

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Reply with quote  #19 
Sounds good.

What is a "knuckle pop" of the index finger?  How do I know if I'm doing that?

Thanks,

Buffalo
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Robin Dawes

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Reply with quote  #20 
When the coin (or whatever) is grasped by the tips of the thumb and index finger, the swift action of withdrawing the object into the right hand can cause the index finger to bend strongly at the first joint.  The mechanics of the hand can push this knuckle upwards sharply, taking the finger out of alignment with the other fingers of the right hand.  This would not happen if you legitimately placed the object into the left hand - the index finger would be relaxed.  Thus it is a tell.
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Bmat

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalo McKinley
Mike Powers, that is amazing.  I have no idea how he could possibly palm the coin in his right hand, since he appears to be placing the coin in his left hand with the tips of his fingers.

Also, there appears to be space between the fingers of his right hand.

Absolutely amazing.

-Buffalo


Yes it is amazing, and I also think you are assuming, or perhaps I am.  When you say palming are you referring to a classic palm.  Because if you are, he is not palming the coin at all.   At least I don't think so and I think I know how he is doing it but can't know for sure because he never told me.  

But as somebody who has been around the block once or twice I can deduce what is happening. 

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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #22 
Mickey never makes a mistake or flashes in my experience. It's a thing of beauty. I really love how he "removes" the coin from the hand it was never in. Also coin through head and back!

Mike
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmat


Yes it is amazing, and I also think you are assuming, or perhaps I am.  When you say palming are you referring to a classic palm.  Because if you are, he is not palming the coin at all.   At least I don't think so and I think I know how he is doing it but can't know for sure because he never told me.  

But as somebody who has been around the block once or twice I can deduce what is happening. 


Most of the time the coin is in "fingertip" rest as it is just after the move. A minor adjustment results in finger "palm" and a more involved motion transfers it to classic palm. I don't think Mickey uses classic palm nearly as much as other holds.

To me a dead giveaway is when a magician tries to classic palm too soon after the ROV vanish. It telegraphs that something happened. There should be a pause then the coin can be classic palmed in-transit as the hand moves to do something. The small motion is gobbled up by the larger action.
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David

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Reply with quote  #24 
While I am not the expert of all things coin magic I will make a suggestion. When you mentioned your ring finger moving as you secure the coin my advice would be to of course try to eliminate it but also remember some of the smaller movements can be hid in the larger movements. If you are Vanishing the coin and your right hand is just sitting there doing nothing but securing the coin in finger palm it’s more noticeable than if you are doing another motion with the hand while you are putting it in finger palm. If that’s makes sense. Also coin sleights are something that take a while. Keep working and you will continue to get better.
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalo McKinley
Sounds good.

What is a "knuckle pop" of the index finger?  How do I know if I'm doing that?

Thanks,

Buffalo


Buffalo, as I was thinking about this thread it occurred to me that part of the issue with learning from youtube videos is that there is a good chance the people you are watching have never themselves been taught correctly.

In other words, most of us that really respect the art will invest in books such as Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, Kaufman's Coin Magic and Roth's Expert Coin Magic.  Those works should be on the shelf of anyone seriously interested in coin magic.  

Those aren't exhaustive, but cover most of the basic sleights and a host of advanced technique.  Bobo alone has enough material to keep you busy for years.  And many of the routines aren't ever seen these days, so it will look "new" to most.

So to sum it up.  Beware of videos purporting to teach "the real work", when the author hasn't really done any work at all.
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Buffalo McKinley

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Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ

So to sum it up.  Beware of videos purporting to teach "the real work", when the author hasn't really done any work at all.


Thanks for all the advice, RayJ!

I'll take a look at the books you mention.

I prefer videos, because I can see what to do.  When I read descriptions in books, often I find the technique perplexing.

-Buffalo
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #27 
Buffalo, there is quite a spirited debate that ensues whenever books and videos are concerned.  I didn't say versus intentionally.  Some take polar opposite views.  I think both mediums are helpful.  One thing I see sometimes is that young performers that watch a video turn into little robots and mimic the performer down to the exact patter and body language.  Not a great idea.  When reading a sleight in a book, yes it is hard for some people to picture what it should look like and 2D photos or drawings might not be perfect, but in a way that is part of the charm.  Two people can read a description and each take away unique things from it.  So at the end they both might learn something adequately, but slightly different.  Nothing wrong with that.

Another thing that happens as you grow in the pursuit of knowledge is that what was once perplexing as you say becomes easier.  Experience helps prime the pump.
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Steven Youell

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Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalo McKinley
I'm a bit of a perfectionist, which means I frequently waste a lot of time improving things that no one would notice.

You may not be able to achieve perfection, but only by chasing it can you achieve excellence.

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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #29 
I would add to what Steven said re: "I waste a lot of time improving things that no one would notice." I believe that the audience notices much more that we're aware of. Some of this is even at a subconscious level. So I think improving something is always worthwhile.

That having been said, we also have to use our time wisely. We need to make smart decisions regarding where to allocate our precious time. At my age, I'm not likely to put time in on the "Cherry Control." It can be a very deceptive way of controlling a card. But I have a number of ways of doing that already. Should I "polish" my control to the top? I don't think so. I'm at the point where my tool box is fairly static. I need to spend time on presentation. That's where the "bang for the buck" is for me.

Finally, to quote Vernon quoting Michelangelo, "Perfection is made from trifles. But perfection is no trifle."

Mike
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Gerald Deutsch

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Reply with quote  #30 

I published Perverse Coin and Salt Shaker on the Perverse Magic thread of the Genii Forum on April 1, 2009 and I noted the Complete Retention Vanish of the coin.

 

The following is part of what I said in that posting:

 

“As a long time student of Slydini, I, of course learned ‘lapping’ and I found that the reaching for a salt shaker on my right with my right hand (that has the object to be lapped) is a good way to lap that object. The object is dropped as I move my hand over my lap to get the saltshaker on my right.

 

“The borrowed quarter is taken in the right hand and put into the left hand and the “retention vanish” is done. (You can see Roth ‘Expert Coin Magic’ page 7, Bobo ‘Modern Coin Magic’ page 29 and ‘Greater Magic’ page 666) but as the right hand comes away it goes to get the salt shaker (which is to the performer’s right) and as it does it goes in sort of a U, passing over the lap and as it does the coin is lapped. (See Slydini Kills Time Apocalypse page 25.)

 




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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerald Deutsch

I published Perverse Coin and Salt Shaker on the Perverse Magic thread of the Genii Forum on April 1, 2009 and I noted the Complete Retention Vanish of the coin.

 

The following is part of what I said in that posting:

 

“As a long time student of Slydini, I, of course learned ‘lapping’ and I found that the reaching for a salt shaker on my right with my right hand (that has the object to be lapped) is a good way to lap that object. The object is dropped as I move my hand over my lap to get the saltshaker on my right.

 

“The borrowed quarter is taken in the right hand and put into the left hand and the “retention vanish” is done. (You can see Roth ‘Expert Coin Magic’ page 7, Bobo ‘Modern Coin Magic’ page 29 and ‘Greater Magic’ page 666) but as the right hand comes away it goes to get the salt shaker (which is to the performer’s right) and as it does it goes in sort of a U, passing over the lap and as it does the coin is lapped. (See Slydini Kills Time Apocalypse page 25.)

 






Gerald, that is a good explanation of motivation.  Having something to do with your hand while secretly performing an action in the other.  I studied Slydini too and the only thing I will caution is that his lapping techniques always must be covered by covert or overt action.  One of the phases of magic included folks "going south" with anything and everything with no motivation whatsoever.  In the end it is easily detected by the audience and once they know you are doing it, you're screwed.  What is missing from many in their lapping technique is the body language, what I call the Slydini lean and the mannerisms that add to the deceptiveness.


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Gerald Deutsch

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ


 What is missing from many in their lapping technique is the body language, what I call the Slydini lean and the mannerisms that add to the deceptiveness.




The problem with Slydini  students is many try to look and act like him and that's not always natural.

For example Slydini would raise one hand and lean forward while the other hand "did something.

I speak much faster than Slydini did and what I would do would be to snap my fingers as I raised that hand while my other hand "did what it had to"

But it was Slydini's principle of misdirection but done in a way to fit me.
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #33 
Yes, the last thing anyone wants is to look like they are doing an impersonation of a performer.  The point is, everyone has mannerisms and typical habits that they can take advantage of.  
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Buffalo McKinley

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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Youell

You may not be able to achieve perfection, but only by chasing it can you achieve excellence.


Respectfully, I couldn't disagree more.

This is one of those sayings that sounds great in theory.

Pursuing excellence is an admirable pursuit, but perfectionism is actually counter-productive to that pursuit.  You can never make something perfect, but you can spend decades trying to achieve that little bit of improvement that no one notices and ultimately doesn't make any difference while sacrificing time that could be invested in improving other worthy goals.

Take your double-lift for example, you can't make that a little bit better?  And once you improved it, you could still make it a little bit better, right?

At some point it has to be good enough (not perfect), so you can move on to learning other sleights/tricks, no?

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