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pnerd

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Reply with quote  #1 
After the spectator inserts a number of cards into the box, the performer takes the rest of the deck in order to take out the spectator’s thought-of card. Here’s my point – the performer could easily count the cards in the deck to determine how many cards are in the box. I can do it in 10-12 seconds while going through the deck. I know that’s not what the performer does (or is supposed to do). But the spectator might come up with this solution regarding how the performer knows the value of the thought-of card and go home thinking they figured out the secret. In fact, that’s what I thought Bannon was doing when I saw him perform it for the first time. How would you solve this?
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Robin Dawes

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Reply with quote  #2 
Hi pnerd

That's certainly a possible solution that might occur to the audience.  I've never had anyone suggest it, but who knows what goes on in the mind of the participant?  You might want to check out the routine by Alan Zola Kronzek that inspired Bannon's routine.  It's in his book Artful Deceptions.
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pnerd

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Reply with quote  #3 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Dawes
You might want to check out the routine by Alan Zola Kronzek that inspired Bannon's routine.  It's in his book Artful Deceptions.

Is there any performance video of Kronzek's routine that I can check out?

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Mbreggar

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Reply with quote  #4 
pnerd,

I think it is purely a matter of attitude when you run through the cards. Since my magic is a bit off-kilter and comedic, quickly and sloppily moving back and forth through the deck as I try to capture their brainwaves is all seen a part of the comedy and not part of any method. A some point through the back and forth choppiness, I find the key card, quickly do the count and then move backwards and forwards again until I find the card I wish to reveal. It's all quite frantic and funny, but it completely disguises method.

John's idea for this trick is brilliant and very well-constructed. If you learned it from his book ("Destination Zero"), I'd recommend you go back and review John's outs for the possible outcomes. Very well-worded and easy to adapt to a personal style.

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pnerd

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Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbreggar
I think it is purely a matter of attitude when you run through the cards. Since my magic is a bit off-kilter and comedic, quickly and sloppily moving back and forth through the deck as I try to capture their brainwaves is all seen a part of the comedy and not part of any method. A some point through the back and forth choppiness, I find the key card, quickly do the count and then move backwards and forwards again until I find the card I wish to reveal. It's all quite frantic and funny, but it completely disguises method.

Thank you. That's a good way to present it. [thumb]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbreggar
John's idea for this trick is brilliant and very well-constructed. If you learned it from his book ("Destination Zero"), I'd recommend you go back and review John's outs for the possible outcomes. Very well-worded and easy to adapt to a personal style.

I've learnt it from Mentalissimo. And I'll have to go through the outs several more times and practise them in order to properly internalize them. 

Mr. Breggar or anyone else has any more ideas about the question in my original post? I'm trying to hear as many points of view on this as possible. 

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EVILDAN

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Reply with quote  #6 
I spread through the deck in big clumps going from front to back skipping big chunks. Then I go in reverse doing the same. My mindset is not intentionally looking past every card but rather, scanning quickly through expecting the card to just jump out at me. At one point I have the top few cards spread a bit to get the info I need, then go and grab the needed card. At no time does it look like I’m counting the cards or have an opportunity to do so.
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Mbreggar

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Reply with quote  #7 
The clumpy thing is what I was trying to describe! EvilD got it exactly!
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pnerd

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Reply with quote  #8 
By the way, is there any data regarding whether males/females are statistically more likely to choose red/black (or vice versa) cards?
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Robin Dawes

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Reply with quote  #9 
Banachek's Psychological Subtleties may have the answer to that question.
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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnerd
By the way, is there any data regarding whether males/females are statistically more likely to choose red/black (or vice versa) cards?


Outdated, but still relevant and fascinating, you might take a look at Psychology of the Psychic, by Marks and Kammann, for population stereotypes. In, Psychology for the Mentalist, Andy Luttrell offers some update information, based on his own research on the subject. 

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Medifro

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Reply with quote  #11 
it's a plausible solution that you can eliminate subconsciously by just taking out the card with a fast spread, right after you pronounce it, in the context of being excited or anxious as your character allows. This all so makes the out look better as you were too impulsive, so it's natural to have a change of mind.

If you perform it to friends or family the psychology the guys discussed above may not work.

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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #12 
I just learned it. The Clock Method is killer, something I've used in other effects. My thinking is that females would choose a heart or diamond over the black cards. But, not always.

Also, I learned this from Mentalissimo.

Just learning this, so does anyone do this and they mostly get a black card? Picking up the tabled red card and looking thru the deck too me is very bold, what kind of reactions do you get when you do this ?

This has all the makings of a fabulous trick! I've done a few tricks with the clock method, it goes over everybody's head.

Rick-

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Michaelblue

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Reply with quote  #13 
When Bannon counts a certain number of cards he does it three by three.  3, 6, 9...and so on. Makes it realllly easy
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pnerd

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mind Phantom
I just learned it. The Clock Method is killer, something I've used in other effects.
... 

I've done a few tricks with the clock method, it goes over everybody's head.

What is the clock method and what does it have to do with AK-47?

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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #15 
Ive run across the clock principal a few times that being AK-47, Larry Becker's Cardiology, Christian Chelman's Zodiac and Jon Tramaine's Clock Trick.

They all start out with a key card, then the spectator is asked to pick i.e Zodiac for example the number of houses in their sun sign and is told to sit, on their cards. The mentalist then makes a calculation and then can determine what sun sign they were born under.

Bannon's routine uses this through out his routine..I need to do this a few times to get a feel if this is going to work or not.

It worked when I did Zodiac and I have been doing it for over 20 years.

Rick-



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Paul Hallas

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Reply with quote  #16 
Not come across "Zodiac" though years back Roy Johnson published some 'clock' routines with a Zodiac deck in his "world of Clocks" booklet. Recently I saw this "Zodiac" clock routine I thought looked good: https://www.mymagic.com/p/card-magic/zodiac-coin

Apologies for going off topic. But there are a number of nice 'clock' routines in print. 
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EVILDAN

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Reply with quote  #17 
Zodiac is in Chelman’s “Capricornian Tales.”
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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #18 
If you just use the language in the book, this is a killer trick. Today I had someone pick a black card, then I did the scenario in the book..no problem.
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Gareth

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Reply with quote  #19 
Not a direct answer to your question but this entry from the marvellous blog - The Jerx, may be of interest

http://www.thejerx.com/blog/2016/8/21/tweak-47

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Andy Kean

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Reply with quote  #20 
John Carey has a number of versions of this plot based on Alan K's original idea.
I have road tested (prior to lockdown 😄) a number of these and AK 47. I have to say my preference is JC's Thinking and Syncing from his first book.
You might like to give that a try?
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zarrow52

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Reply with quote  #21 
I have both the book and the video, and have performed AK-47 quite frequently. I came up with a small change that I do to help out with the red/black issue. It may seem to weaken things a bit because you ask the spectator a colour question BEFORE you put a card down, but I have found that it plays just as well, and no one has really commented on it one way or another:

Say your target card is a 7. As you look through the deck trying to figure out which card to "choose", cut a RED 7 to the face of the deck (as it faces you of course). Then search through the deck to find a BLACK 7, remove it and place it on the face of the deck, but down-jog it a bit so you can 'second deal' the RED 7 if you need to.

Say to the spectator, "I'm pretty sure this is your card right here" and tap the face of the deck, indicating that you are talking about the card you removed and placed there, "but I want to ask one thing to make sure. Are you thinking of a BLACK card?"

If they say YES, say "I thought so!" and deal the BLACK 7 face down to the table. If they say NO, say "I didn't think so!" and second deal the RED 7 face down to the table. Then proceed as usual.

Sean

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Hendu71

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Reply with quote  #22 
Your key card is near the top of the deck.  Beeline straight to it spreading at a blistering clumpy speed.  There's no way you could be "counting" the cards in that little time. The motion of that, then going to get the default mate simply isn't going to look like counting the entire deck.  Because you're not.  Remember, for the presumed method (you're counting cards) you can't guesstimate.  You have to be EXACT. A single card off and you'll be wrong.  A few seconds with 100% accuracy?  Superhuman.

I'm impressed that you can count a mostly full deck of cards in 10 or so seconds.  Most laymen couldn't do it in 20.  So you blasting to the key card in 3 seconds just rolling over whole sections of the deck is not going to conceivably be a 100% accurate count.

Yes, somebody may get the idea that something is up between the missing cards and how you know their card.  And that's fine, because that's true.  You can't eliminate that suspicion, but you can blast to the keycard fast enough that nobody will reasonably believe you got a legitimate 100% correct count of the cards.  And IF they assume that you're legitimately counting all the cards in a few seconds, then that makes you look like a superhuman, and that's okay too.

And that's not the only part of the trick.  If the trick ended right after the part they think you're "counting" with "Your card's a Jack!" then yeah, it might be problematic, but it's more layered than that.
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Hendu71

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Reply with quote  #23 
The change I do is I chose a heart as the "default" card you put down, and a spade for the black.

Based on the statistics here:

https://www.psychologyofmagic.org/research/cards/

10 of the top 26 thought of cards are hearts.  That's insanely skewed.  Spades have a slight edge over clubs but not as much.

It's very obvious reading Bannon's explanation that he's aware of this, but I don't know why he advises using the "first mate you find."  Take the extra few seconds and increase the probability of nailing it significantly I say.
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