Sign up Latest Topics Chat
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
Magicmason

Avatar / Picture

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 92
Reply with quote  #1 
Hey All.  

Magic-Aly posted this under the Dunbury Delusion topic....

What I have always loved about the magician-in-trouble plot is the element of surprise. Audiences do too! In fact, a fascinating and bona fide research study that Joshua Jay conducted in association with the College of New Jersey reveals that the highest percentage of study subjects identified "surprise" as the thing they loved most about magic. (See "What Do Audiences Really Think?" Magic Magazine September 2016) http://www.magicmagazine.com/live/video/joshua-jay/

Very interesting video and article.  I recommend you check it out if you have time.

If indeed "surprise" is the thing spectators love the most about magic... WHAT IMPROMPTU (or small set up) CARD TRICKS HAVE BROUGHT ABOUT REAL SURPRISE FOR YOUR SPECTATORS?  WHAT ARE YOUR TOP 4-5 TRICKS?

Here's are a few that I get real good surprise reactions...  

Color Monte

Homage to Fechter (John Carey take on "That's It")

Dr Daley (the version of John Carey where he uses two jokers and a flushtration count)

Chicago Opener

Maxi Twist IX (an old Dave Stahl trick from Minneapolis). 

What tricks come to your mind or you recommend?

Thanks!

Tom Mason






0
Gerald Deutsch

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 330
Reply with quote  #2 

There are many effects on the Perverse Magic thread of the Genii Forum where not only is the audience surprised but so is the magician.

 This effect (with the method) is posted on that thread on December 1, 2017

 

Vernon’s Variant 

 Background

 

I previously wrote on this thread:

 

“Perverse Magic is a form of presentation that puts the magician with the audience rather than, as is the case with the presentation of most magic, above the audience. It has the magician saying ‘I don’t understand.’ Instead of ‘Tada’!”

 

This effect is a good example. It appears on page 226 of “Ultimate Secrets Of Card Magic” by Dai Vernon. As written, Vernon says:

 

“This is repeated time and again, yet they always are wrong – they begin getting more befuddled each time ____”

 

With my suggested presentation of this nice effect, it is the magician and not the spectator who gets “more befuddled each time”.

 

Effect

 

1          “You know, it’s hard to understand some magic instructions sometimes. I was reading a trick where the third of four vards is supposed to be face up and I keep getting all the cards face down. Maybe you can tell me what I’m doing wrong.”

 

2          The magician gives four cards to several people and takes four himself.

 

3          “Okay, now as I remember the instructions, this is what you do:

 

a          Hold the cards face down.

 

b          Turn the top card face up and put it on the bottom.

 

c          Take the next card and put it on the bottom.

 

d          Turn the whole packet face up.

 

e          Turn the top card face down and replace it.

 

f             Turn the bottom card face down and replace it on the bottom.

 

4          “Now, what’s supposed to happen is that one card is supposed to be face up.”

 

5          The spectators all spread their cards and each has once card face up. The

magician’s cards are all face down.

 

The magician shakes his head, annoyed.

 

6          “Let’s try one more time,” says the magician. “Turn all your cards face down.”

 

7          The steps in 3 above are repeated and once again, when the spectators all spread their cards each has one card face up. The magician’s cards are all face down.

 

“I quit!” say the magician in frustration.

 

 Method

0
Mind Phantom

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,492
Reply with quote  #3 
Oh, there are too many... my top 5 would be...

Quick Coincidence ~ Ackerman

Gambler vs Magician ~ Harry L

Finger On The Card ~ Ouellet

Expert At The Bridge Table ~ Wimhurst

Vegas Shuffle ~ Ortiz

Logan,




__________________
Self Concept Is Destiny...
0
Gareth

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,034
Reply with quote  #4 
Graat topic. I look forward to reading that article

I think any OOTW or Sympathetic Cards variant and of course Triumph.

I know, Magicmason you stipulated card tricks but the cups and balls and chop cup rely heavily on surprise.
0
Magic-Aly

Avatar / Picture

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 607
Reply with quote  #5 
The more I think about it, there are actually quite a few that I perform (or have performed) that contain this delightful element of surprise that audiences seem to love.  Here are some of them:

1. Magician Versus Gambler (Harry Lorayne) ("The Good Stuff")

2. Whack the Pack (Paul Harris)

3. You Put It In (Paul Rosini) (I have also read versions of this by Harry, as well as Annemann)

4. Card Under the Drink

5. Card On (the Bartender's) Forehead (Came up with this while working at the bar.  Selected card "vanishes" from the deck and, professing ignorance as to its whereabouts, I call out to the bartender who is standing behind the bar, 10-20 feet away - people look over to see him with his arms casually folded and there "it" is on his forehead.  Plays big for the entire place)

6. Loryne's Poker Deal (More of the Good Stuff)
0
Dave

Member
Registered:
Posts: 64
Reply with quote  #6 
Hi Magic-Aly,
Excellent question. I would say the two that elicit the most surprised responses for me are Allan Ackerman's "A Self-Working Quick Coincidence" from Las Vegas Kardma and Brother John Hamman's The Signed Card. Of course, if I have it with me, I ring in Paul Harris's "Solid Deception" to good effect.

Dave
0
Dave

Member
Registered:
Posts: 64
Reply with quote  #7 
I should have mentioned as well the startling Larry Jennings trick, "The Visitor" which is always met with surprise and amazement.

Dave
0
Anthony Vinson

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 3,150
Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
Of course, if I have it with me, I ring in Paul Harris's "Solid Deception" to good effect.


Jerry Mentzer used to sell an excellent gimmick for Solid Deception made of realistic-looking plastic. Good weight, too. Just wonder: Do you make your own, or use a manufactured gimmick? If you use a manufactured gimmick, can you tell me where you get it? I love the trick, but just don't have the patience for arts and crafts... And frankly, my previous attempts have all ended up looking awful!

Av
0
Magic-Aly

Avatar / Picture

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 607
Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
Hi Magic-Aly,
Excellent question. I would say the two that elicit the most surprised responses for me are Allan Ackerman's "A Self-Working Quick Coincidence" from Las Vegas Kardma and Brother John Hamman's The Signed Card. Of course, if I have it with me, I ring in Paul Harris's "Solid Deception" to good effect.

Dave


Thanks, Dave, but credit must go to Magicmason for starting this thread and posing the question.
0
Magicmason

Avatar / Picture

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 92
Reply with quote  #10 
Thank you All!!  Wonderful suggestions and ideas.  Thank you especially Gerald in providing us with a perverse card magic routine.  Very clever!  


0
Dave

Member
Registered:
Posts: 64
Reply with quote  #11 
Hi Anthony,
I did indeed get the "Solid Deception" deck from Jerry Mentzer some years ago. It's well-made, and much better than anything I could craft. Don't know of any other sources.

Dave
0
Anthony Vinson

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 3,150
Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
Hi Anthony,
I did indeed get the "Solid Deception" deck from Jerry Mentzer some years ago. It's well-made, and much better than anything I could craft. Don't know of any other sources.


Ah well, thanks for the reply. Mine disappeared some years back and I have sought a replacement since, but without success. Bought mine from Jerry at an Atlanta Harvest of Magic convention in the late 80s or early 90s. Perhaps there are some floating around out there and someone of TMF will suggest a connection.

Av
0
Harry Lorayne

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 2,375
Reply with quote  #13 
     Card tricks that surprise?  I could write a book!!
0
Anthony Vinson

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 3,150
Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Lorayne
     Card tricks that surprise?  I could write a book!!


[thumb][rofl]
0
Magicmason

Avatar / Picture

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 92
Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Lorayne
     Card tricks that surprise?  I could write a book!!


It would be interesting, Harry, if not maybe even possible to calculate, if you could scan the years and say... these THREE tricks (or four or five) caused more SURPRISE than all the others in comparison.  

We would love your thoughts on that... but again maybe totally impossible question to answer.  

best wishes to you Harry!

Tom



0
Harry Lorayne

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 2,375
Reply with quote  #16 
   Really is "impossible to calculate" - always according to circumstances...type of audience, venue, time, etc. HaLo Aces always surprises. But then...Out of this Universe, Card Sharp & Four Gamblers, Magician Vs Gambler, my Ambitious Card Routine, Epitome Location - and on and on.
0
Magicmason

Avatar / Picture

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 92
Reply with quote  #17 
Thank you Harry.  I am sure you are right... impossible to calculate.  But one thing for sure... for decades you have been bringing delight and "surprise" for people with a regular deck of cards all over the globe.  Magic Christian in Vienna Austria spoke to me so highly of you for instance.  Take care Harry!



0
Harry Lorayne

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 2,375
Reply with quote  #18 
     Thank you, Magicmason. You brought back some lovely memories mentioning Magic Christian. My wife and I spent quite some time with him in Vienna. He showed us around and he took us by boat to my next lecture venue.
     One silly unimportant memory, but it always "stuck" in my mind --- we were having dinner in his lovely home. Don't know how it came up but I said something about my townhouse in NYC (in which we lived at the time), that it was quite old, built in the 1800s. And Magic said, "Harry; this house was built in the 1200s" !!
0
Magicmason

Avatar / Picture

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 92
Reply with quote  #19 
haha!  great story Harry!  We had a student from Hallstatt, Austria in our church in Vienna.    He said, "Tom, my house is older than your country!"  haha!  

yes.. Harry... Magic Christian and the others love you in Vienna!  






0
Harry Lorayne

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 2,375
Reply with quote  #20 
     Do you see him? Talk to him? If so, please give him by best regards.
0
tommyellison

Avatar / Picture

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 274
Reply with quote  #21 
One of my favorites and a mainstay in my CU repertoire:

"Foursome"


from "Deck-Sterity"  written by Harry Lorayne in 1967.

Its a killer and always produces a gasp from the audience!

Tommy 


__________________
"Why use a large word when you can use a diminutive one instead?"    -Rob Zabrecky

"Great spirits always encounter massive resistance from mediocre minds."   - Albert Einstein

"Consensus Kills Momentum" -Tommy Ellison

http://www.tommyellisonmagic.com
0
Steven Youell

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 762
Reply with quote  #22 
First, allow me to mention that one study does not determine fact and therefore we should be careful in basing
our work on just one study.

Second, it is possible (and I think likely) that the response from the subjects may be their attempt to describe what they like, but it may not actually be what they like. Saying that it's the pure surprise seems (to me) to not ring true because it's quite possible to surprise someone in an unpleasant manner. Sucker tricks are surprising but (IMO) can be irritating to the audience depending on how they're played.

Really good magic triggers the Fight or Flight response and it is the adrenaline that some people like. Others do not. I think this not only explains why some like/dislike magic, it also explains why some people like/dislike Horror Movies and Amusement Rides. They're making the decision based on whether they like the rush or not.

That's my current theory which is subject to change as new information comes in over the next few decades. [biggrin]

__________________
 
0
Harrisgagnon

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 288
Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyellison
One of my favorites and a mainstay in my CU repertoire:

"Foursome"


from "Deck-Sterity"  written by Harry Lorayne in 1967.

Its a killer and always produces a gasp from the audience!

Tommy 




Agree! I use this trick often.
0
KenTheriot

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,244
Reply with quote  #24 
Without a doubt, the card trick that does this for me is "Be Honest, What Is It" (Eddie Fechter). Granted, I only do about a dozen card tricks. But that is the one that gets the most "surprise" by far.
0
Robin Dawes

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,645
Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Youell

...

Second, it is possible (and I think likely) that the response from the subjects may be their attempt to describe what they like, but it may not actually be what they like. Saying that it's the pure surprise seems (to me) to not ring true because it's quite possible to surprise someone in an unpleasant manner. Sucker tricks are surprising but (IMO) can be irritating to the audience depending on how they're played.

Really good magic triggers the Fight or Flight response and it is the adrenaline that some people like. Others do not. I think this not only explains why some like/dislike magic, it also explains why some people like/dislike Horror Movies and Amusement Rides. They're making the decision based on whether they like the rush or not.
...


I completely agree with every single word in this quote.  People are notoriously unreliable witnesses regarding their own likes/dislikes and feelings.  A person may say "I think roses are ugly" when the truth is that their horrible Aunt Mathilda used to drench herself in rose perfume.  It's not the appearance of the roses they dislike, but the memories that are triggered by the smell of them.  Another person might say "I love surprises" but what they have in mind is "I like it when my spouse gives me a gift."

If surprise were all that is needed to entertain, I could become the most popular entertainer in town by sneaking up behind people and screaming loudly in their ears.  (Actually, people might prefer that to my magic.)

Elmsley wrote a very thoughtful analysis of what makes magic effective.  He didn't claim to have done a scientific study, but I find his logic compelling.  He believed that magic is most effective when the outcome is predictable, inevitable, and impossible.  For example, the volunteer chooses a card and it is shuffled back into the deck - the audience knows the magician is going to find it.  The strength of the magic comes from the impossibility of the details of the conclusion.  The audience knows you are are going to find the card, and when you take out your wallet they know that's where the card will be.  According to Elmsley the strength of the magic comes from the buildup of internal tension in the audience's minds: "I know s/he's going to find the card, but there's no way ... no, it can't be in there ... it's zippered shut ... OMG!!!"

It's clear that in this house there are many mansions.   Elmsley himself did not shy away from surprise endings - the salt-pour at the end of his cups and balls routine is evidence of that - but he did not seem to feel that surprise was an essential component of effective magic.

Gerald's discussion of magic that surprises the magician reminded me of a routine by the great Spanish magician Camillo that brought the house down at a magic convention a few years ago.  During his performance he showed a medium-sized delivery box, taped shut, which he said had been given to him earlier.  He opened the box and lifted out the contents - a bright-green stuffed toy alligator.  He gazed at it for a moment then looked sadly at the audience and said slowly and mournfully "I was not expecting an alligator."  It literally took minutes for the laughter to subside.
0
Medifro

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 199
Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Dawes
 

It's clear that in this house there are many mansions.   Elmsley himself did not shy away from surprise endings - the salt-pour at the end of his cups and balls routine is evidence of that - but he did not seem to feel that surprise was an essential component of effective magic



Elmsley was talking about suspense. Suspense and Suprise are theatrical tools magicians can use. They are tools, not goals. 

Darwin Ortiz speaks about this best in his book Strong Magic. His own examples, Hitchcock Aces, and Hitchcock Travellers, are IMHO phenomenal card magic pieces where surprise is utilized to great effect.

Sucker endings aren't the only way to elicit Suprise. 
0
Steven Youell

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 762
Reply with quote  #27 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Medifro
Sucker endings aren't the only way to elicit Surprise. 

Yes-- a kick to the groin for example...

Surprise isn't necessary for all Card Effects. What's going to happen in Hamman's The Signed Card becomes clear to an audience before the trick ends. However the sheer impossibility of the effect depends on that. Presentations don't always have to be stories and plots. Sometimes the best presentation is to emphasize and demonstrate the impossibility of what you're doing. The Signed Card is a prime example of this.


__________________
 
0
DJ

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 346
Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Youell


Yes-- a kick to the groin for example...

 


This made my day

__________________
Dan
0
Rudy Tinoco

Avatar / Picture

Founding Member
Registered:
Posts: 4,789
Reply with quote  #29 
Here's one that works really well for me...


__________________
www.youtube.com/themagiciansforum
http://www.facebook.com/themagiciansforum
0
Magicmason

Avatar / Picture

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 92
Reply with quote  #30 
To go back to the beginning here... as I listened to Joshua Jay's explanation of the results to the survey... hundreds of people were asked what they LIKED most about magic.  There were many answers.  But the predominant answer was "surprise".  We can surmise lots of things as to what this means or does not mean.  But this is what the people said when asked what they liked.  Clearly to spectators some magic is surprising and some is not.  They were asked into the jury box and this was their verdict.  I found it fascinating and thought you all might too.  
0
Magicmason

Avatar / Picture

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 92
Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tinoco
Here's one that works really well for me...




great trick Rudy!  Did not see that coming!  
0
Rudy Tinoco

Avatar / Picture

Founding Member
Registered:
Posts: 4,789
Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magicmason



great trick Rudy!  Did not see that coming!  


Thanks magicmason!

That's why I didn't give the name of the effect at the beginning. I think that it would've given away the ending.

The reason that I like this particular version is that there isn't a lot of over proving the initial color of the deck. The nature of the handling allows several red cards to be shown without it looking contrived.

Thanks for taking a moment to watch it.

Rudy

__________________
www.youtube.com/themagiciansforum
http://www.facebook.com/themagiciansforum
0
Rudy Tinoco

Avatar / Picture

Founding Member
Registered:
Posts: 4,789
Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tinoco
Here's one that works really well for me...



Doug Conn told me that the author of his book is actually Paul Cummins and that the book is available through him at http://www.fasdiu.com

Rudy

__________________
www.youtube.com/themagiciansforum
http://www.facebook.com/themagiciansforum
0
Evan S.

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 194
Reply with quote  #34 
Better yet... convince Doug (or Paul, for that matter) to lecture for us. 😉
0
Rudy Tinoco

Avatar / Picture

Founding Member
Registered:
Posts: 4,789
Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan S.
Better yet... convince Doug (or Paul, for that matter) to lecture for us. 😉


Hi Evan, that most definitely would be awesome. It wouldn’t hurt to ask, right? :)

Rudy


__________________
www.youtube.com/themagiciansforum
http://www.facebook.com/themagiciansforum
0
Medifro

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 199
Reply with quote  #36 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Youell


Yes-- a kick to the groin for example...

Surprise isn't necessary for all Card Effects. What's going to happen in Hamman's The Signed Card becomes clear to an audience before the trick ends. However the sheer impossibility of the effect depends on that. Presentations don't always have to be stories and plots. Sometimes the best presentation is to emphasize and demonstrate the impossibility of what you're doing. The Signed Card is a prime example of this.



I agree. You described Suspense, a theatrical tool that magicians use, me included. 

Rudy: I like that effect alot and enjoy performing it for fellow magicians. For laymen I like to do David Williamson's version of the Paul Harris Triamph routine, off his Magic Farm DVD. 
0
Dave

Member
Registered:
Posts: 64
Reply with quote  #37 
Hi Steven Youell,
You, and Medifro, make an interesting distinction between surprise and suspense, or perhaps bafflement, that I had not considered before. And you are right - The Signed Card, which I have done for years, is a perfect example of the latter. I think I will reappraise all my effects in light of that distinction. That said, both reactions are gratifying.

Dave
0
Medifro

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 199
Reply with quote  #38 
The way I perform the Signed Card with Suspense is this: ( I'm tempted to share this 😉  )

- I take out a card and place it carefully on a table, with two other cards as tweezers. I say I cannot touch this as I promised someone I cannot touch this card. 

- A card is selected, I take it out slowly and say I promise you I won't even touch it. Hide it so I cannot see it. I then use random tweezer cards to peek at the mystery card, then I say "Oh, you have the two of spades?" That suggests to them both cards match.

- " You know, you would be right, though there is one way to make your card unique, by writing something on it". She signs her card. 

- Once she does, "The way you sign your card is exactly the same as in the mystery card. For one to exist, one has to vanish".

- Take out the aces, I offer them to the choice of which one they want to vanish. Finish off with the Hamman routine.


You'll note in the script flashbacks and ways to suggest the mystery card is their signed card without overtly claiming to be so, not until the vanish phase is arrived at. I have found suspense to be maximized using this approach. 

- Feras
0
sjrwheeler

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 103
Reply with quote  #39 

I think many effects could be performed with or without surprise depending on the presentation. For example I use 2 different handlings for OOTW depending on the situation I'm in. With one of them I openly explain what I want them to do ("deal the cards you think are red here and the cards you think are black here") and this (hopefully) builds up suspense, and to an eventual feeling of "no way" before releasing that suspense... but it is in no way surprising. 
The other version I give more vague instructions so they don't see the ending coming ("deal the cards you want to keep here, and the ones you want to get rid of over here"). The ending is a huge surprise they never could have seen coming.

Sometimes I get a better reaction from the open suspenseful version, and sometimes I get a better reaction from the surprise version. I haven't quite figured out why, or when I should use each one for greater effect. 



Here's a question:

Is it possible to promise someone that they will feel surprise and for them to actually experience surprise at the end? 
So don't tell them what will happen, only that they will be surprised... will they still be surprised? 

0
Robin Dawes

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,645
Reply with quote  #40 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjrwheeler

...

Here's a question:

Is it possible to promise someone that they will feel surprise and for them to actually experience surprise at the end? 
So don't tell them what will happen, only that they will be surprised... will they still be surprised? 



This reminds me of the Unexpected Hanging paradox [smile]
0
Harry Lorayne

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 2,375
Reply with quote  #41 
    I wonder what kind of surprise you'd get with my Out Of This Universe! That is, if you know my Out Of This Universe. (If you don't, you're in for a "surprise"!)
0
Dave

Member
Registered:
Posts: 64
Reply with quote  #42 
A nice approach, Medifro. Thank you for sharing!

Dave
0
Harrisgagnon

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 288
Reply with quote  #43 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Lorayne
    I wonder what kind of surprise you'd get with my Out Of This Universe! That is, if you know my Out Of This Universe. (If you don't, you're in for a "surprise"!)


I get plenty of surprises with that!
0
magicfish

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,302
Reply with quote  #44 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyellison
One of my favorites and a mainstay in my CU repertoire:

"Foursome"


from "Deck-Sterity"  written by Harry Lorayne in 1967.

Its a killer and always produces a gasp from the audience!

Tommy 


Tommy, this is an all-time favorite of mine. I've been performing this since I first read it many years ago. Thanks for sharing the clip. I LOVE this effect.
0
magicfish

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,302
Reply with quote  #45 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tinoco
Here's one that works really well for me...


Rudy, you're awesome brother.
1. I can tell you love that trick by the look on your face- and man do I know and feel that look.
2. You fried me- again.
3. I own and love the Conn book.
4. See number 2.
0
Rudy Tinoco

Avatar / Picture

Founding Member
Registered:
Posts: 4,789
Reply with quote  #46 
Quote:
Originally Posted by magicfish

Rudy, you're awesome brother.
1. I can tell you love that trick by the look on your face- and man do I know and feel that look.
2. You fried me- again.
3. I own and love the Conn book.
4. See number 2.


Thanks magicfish! I appreciate your encouragement.
You read my face correctly, I love this trick!

Rudy

__________________
www.youtube.com/themagiciansforum
http://www.facebook.com/themagiciansforum
0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.