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Socrates

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Reply with quote  #1 
We spend many hours immersed in magic, reading about the subject and learning our tricks, but I am curious to know how many of us here actually believe in magic?
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jim ferguson

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Reply with quote  #2 
Hi Socrates.

I notice that this post has been here for eight hours now, with no replies.
I suspect (but obviously can't say for sure), that the lack of response is twofold - most are probably going to say no, so no real point in replying. And those who perhaps do, may not be replying for fear of ridicule.


So to get the ball rolling, I shall reply.

I'm not sure if you've read about my background, which I mentioned on her some time ago now. So to reiterate -

I was brought up with many stories and tales of the weird and wonderful. My grandmother was a full blood Romany Gypsy. My grandfather wasn't, which makes my father half Gypsy, and me a quarter Gypsy.

I am probably one of the most superstitious persons you're likely to meet. I even have a certain way and order of tying my shoelaces - and any deviation can cause great stress.

I used to do tarot readings, and got pretty good at them. Although I haven't done them in years, I have been gradually getting back into them - I also have a crystal ball.

I believe in charms, talismans, curses, spells and many of the "old ways" - and am well aware that many members will be laughing their heads off when reading this.

If these types of things are what you mean by believing in magic, then yes, I believe.

I sincerely hope I haven't just alienated myself on here by writing this post, and I do keep my beliefs quite separate from my performances.




Jim



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jim ferguson

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Reply with quote  #3 
While we're on the subject.

I am a member of Magicbunny, and we have an ezine called TopHat.
I remember reading one issue, and a new contributer by the name of WeepingWillie, had a piece published. It was a very nice surprise when he related a story from when he was a kid, about meeting a real Gypsy fortune teller - and that fortune teller was my grans mother (my great grandmother) Isabella Macadam. Such was the impression she made on this young boy, that he still remembered her, in his eighties.
Needless to say, it was a pleasant surprise to read his story.




Jim



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Magic Harry

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Reply with quote  #4 
No one should ever be ridiculed for their beliefs.
Having said that, no I don’t believe in real magic, even though I do have some superstitions.
Magic Harry

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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic Harry
No one should ever be ridiculed for their beliefs.
Having said that, no I don’t believe in real magic, even though I do have some superstitions.
Magic Harry


Well said!  We're an accommodating bunch here.
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John Cowne

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Reply with quote  #6 
I totally agree with Ray and Harry’s comments above. We can be brothers and sisters in the magic brotherhood (not sure what the PC is for brotherhood is - sorry) and still have wildly different opinions. After all, that reflects any family, but they still care for each other when the chips are down. In fact, tolerance can only exist - or at least be identified - when there is something to be tolerant about.
I always keep the distinctions of how people see the word ‘magic’ clear in my head, so if magic is about the manipulation of any force beyond what we could, if we knew the real method, be explained in rational, scientific (including psychological/neurological) terms, I am probably best described as sceptical. But I LOVE the magic - believe in the magic - that is usually discussed at TMF; I ‘believe’ it is valid recreationally and even therapeutically, for both magician and audience. I believe it can be an honourable and financially supportive profession for those who have diligently acquired the necessary skill-set. For me, I also ‘believe’ it is a powerful tool for communicating ideas. When in the right hands, I believe this magic can educate - principally, but not exclusively, by metaphor. It also opens up people’s hearts to the wonder I believe is inherent in a world made by a loving, extremely creative and infinitely complex Creator. Yep, I believe in magic.
The more I hear of the personal stories of people here at TMF, like Jim shared, the more I feel honoured to be part of this diverse community.
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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #7 
If prayer to the Source is magic, then yes I believe magic.

If getting a message from the Universe is magic, then yes I believe in magic.

If there is no such thing as "coincidence " and that everything happens for a reason, then I believe in magic.

If receiving a manifestation from something that you are wanting is magic, then yes I believe in magic.

I'll leave it at that, ok? Interesting posts here..

MP-

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Rudy Tinoco

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Reply with quote  #8 
When I was a teenager, I went through a phase where I was into witchcraft. 

One day, I decided that I was going to cast a spell on a girl at school who I didn't like. I was an intolerant little jerk and had no valid reason not to like her.
Anyway, the spell was supposed to be able to make someone sick. There was an incantation that needed to spoken and a name that needed to be written on a piece of paper. The paper was then burned in the flame of a black candle.

The day after I cast the spell, Monica didn't show up to school. She was sick.

Coincidence? I don't quite know.

I happen to believe that their are powers that can be used/harnessed that shouldn't be trifled with.

So, I guess that means that I'm a believer.



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Medifro

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Reply with quote  #9 
My view changed alot. Currently I don't believe in it as a physical power independent of human perception. If all humans die, magic will too. 
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chris w

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Reply with quote  #10 
I believe in the good we can do for ourselves and for others via perfectly ordinary means. I get off the train at anything mystical.

I can't imagine being as interested as I am in the magic usually discussed here if I thought the phenomena we were providing experiential "proofs" of could actually be done for real. The point, to me, is that they can't.
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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #11 
If we're disclosing our belief systems (without claiming one is better than another) I'll mention that I have a T-shirt that says, "Everything happens for a reason - and that reason is generally Physics."

M
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TheAmazingStanley

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Reply with quote  #12 
I am not sure what you mean my magic. Or believe. I suspect that’s intentional and that the really interesting part of the answers is how responders will interpret the question.

I started an answer but realized I would soon be writing a book, so I will just say yes.

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James Nelson

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Powers
If we're disclosing our belief systems (without claiming one is better than another) I'll mention that I have a T-shirt that says, "Everything happens for a reason - and that reason is generally Physics."

M


This is interesting because physics is everywhere. It is a natural phenomena... but is it a coincidence or orchestrated? It is difficult for me to believe in multiple coincidences... like with the Fibronacci Sequence.

My shuffles resemble two galaxies colliding... chaotic at first but fall in order with time.
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SamtheNotasBadasIWas

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Cowne
Thanks for sharing your story , Sam. It sounds like you came from a very dark place. My prayers are with you.


I removed my post. I think it was inappropriate for me to have posted it here.

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TheAmazingStanley

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Reply with quote  #15 
I believe it is possible to tell the future, to any degree of complexity and accuracy; so mind reading, fortune telling, etc could at some point in the distant future be normal everyday events. But then would it still be magic? Which is the subtlety of this question. If something really can happen, is it magic?

Little Suzy believes mommy that a tiny spirit creature flys into her bedroom at night and exchanges her tooth for a quarter. Does Suzy believe in magic? Or does she just happen to believe that a tiny spirit creature flys into her bedroom at night and exchanges her tooth for a quarter?

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Alan Smithee

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic Harry
No one should ever be ridiculed for their beliefs.
Having said that, no I don’t believe in real magic, even though I do have some superstitions.
Magic Harry


Agreed. But I don't believe the beliefs are beyond criticism.

Example: I believe the world is round(ish) not flat.

Remembering "Capricorn One," I don't know whether I believe in the moon landings.

Regarding "Top Hat" magazine, I believe you can find it here.

http://www.magicbunny.co.uk/tophatv2.php


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jim ferguson

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Smithee


Agreed. But I don't believe the beliefs are beyond criticism.



That's fair. I don't mind criticism. My slight concern when writing my post above, was that the members here may not take my other posts (on sleight of hand etc) seriously - perhaps thinking me a bit of a fool.


Just to clarify, and this may seem a little odd given my post above - but I consider myself a skeptic, in general.
While there are things I believe, I don't believe just anything - and I am well aware there are many frauds out there.
Usually I like to look at things scientifically and rationally, first - and most of the time this is where the answers lay. But now and then, I do come across things that are hard to explain, rationally speaking.
Even today, with the advancements we've made in science, there are still many mysteries in the word, and indeed, the universe.

Which brings me to my next point. Someone mentioned along the lines of, is something still magic if it is explained (by science).
When something has an explanation, then it ceases to be magic - this is true wether it is a genuine mystery, or a trick.

Many of the things I believe, could, and probably will be, explained by quantum mechanics.



Jim




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Paco Nagata

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Reply with quote  #18 
Magic is unbelievable.

So, believing in magic ruins it.

Magic is magic because is unreal.

I think that we must not believe in magic precisely to feel amazed by it!

People like "magic" simple because they like to see something they don't believe in.

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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paco Nagata
Magic is unbelievable.

So, believing in magic ruins it.

Magic is magic because is unreal.

I think that we must not believe in magic precisely to feel amazed by it!

People like "magic" simple because they like to see something they don't believe in.


So piggybacking on your thoughts, is that why they enjoy the Miser's Dream?  Because if one really could pluck money from the air, they sure wouldn't be bothering to show you.
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Paco Nagata

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ


So piggybacking on your thoughts, is that why they enjoy the Miser's Dream?  Because if one really could pluck money from the air, they sure wouldn't be bothering to show you.

And piggybacking on you example, there's a well known magic effect in which a glass of water becomes a glass of beer just shaking it...

I guess that if it were real, the creator wouldn't show it as magic, but become the most productive beer maker in the world just by shaking machines.
About the quality of that magical beer, I don't know.
I've never tried one of them : - \

By the way, Ray, I had to look "piggybacking" into the dictionary.
I'm learning a lot of new English words in this forum!
Nice! : - D

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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paco Nagata

And piggybacking on you example, there's a well known magic effect in which a glass of water becomes a glass of beer just shaking it...

I guess that if it were real, the creator wouldn't show it as magic, but become the most productive beer maker in the world just by shaking machines.
About the quality of that magical beer, I don't know.
I've never tried one of them : - \

By the way, Ray, I had to look "piggybacking" into the dictionary.
I'm learning a lot of new English words in this forum!
Nice! : - D


Piggybacking, yes, I didn't think about the language barrier.  Sorry! But you've now learned a new expression!

The water to beer intrigues me.  Of course in some parts of the world decent water probably costs as much or more than the beer!
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John Cowne

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Powers
If we're disclosing our belief systems (without claiming one is better than another) I'll mention that I have a T-shirt that says, "Everything happens for a reason - and that reason is generally Physics."

M


I like your shirt’s motto, Mike: it gives a little space for qualifying/interpreting the extent of...’generally Physics’. It allows dialogue. Slightly off topic (OK, wildly off topic), I always wanted a T-shirt of Robin William’s Popeye character saying “I ain’t no physicist but I knows what matters”.
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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #23 
Hi John - Yes. I think the qualifier "generally" softens the message. And BTW I don't purport to KNOW anything. I'll end up in skepticism when pushed. I do tend to want to push back on those who do KNOW, however. But I'm nice and generally just let things float by.

Mike
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John Cowne

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Powers
Hi John - Yes. I think the qualifier "generally" softens the message. And BTW I don't purport to KNOW anything. I'll end up in skepticism when pushed. I do tend to want to push back on those who do KNOW, however. But I'm nice and generally just let things float by.

Mike

Totally agree with the push back response; it’s the only way anyone grows, and you do it most graciously. I think my knowledge base is expanding as everyone here shares their stories, but I ‘think’ knowledge by itself is never an end - I enjoy the way it can deepen relationships. I would say that although my knowledge always has a relative and imperfect value, it is no less real. Which is why TMF has so much value. I REALLY enjoy our community.
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Cowne

Totally agree with the push back response; it’s the only way anyone grows, and you do it most graciously. I think my knowledge base is expanding as everyone here shares their stories, but I ‘think’ knowledge by itself is never an end - I enjoy the way it can deepen relationships. I would say that although my knowledge always has a relative and imperfect value, it is no less real. Which is why TMF has so much value. I REALLY enjoy our community.


Iron sharpens iron.  Only by discussing our differences can we truly learn.  Anything else and we're limited to what we "think" others think.  Not a good place to start from.

However, there is a time and a place and in general forums aren't a great place, unless that is the point of the forum.  

I have no issue discussing my beliefs, but I've decided that perhaps the best way is one-on-one.  It seems that nowadays the mere mention of certain things can create rifts.  I think that is sad, but it is what it is and we have a choice in how we deal with it.

The bottom line for me is that we're all here out of a love for magic, or mentalism, or maybe just cards.  We're a community because we have shared passions.  We help each other along the path we've each chosen.  Some are further along the path and can help those following avoid pitfalls.  That's what I hope to accomplish.  
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Socrates

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Reply with quote  #26 
Some wonderful responses to my initial post.  Now I know that there are many interpretations of magic and this can sometimes be a tricky topic to discuss but one thing we know for certain is that the 'experience' of magic is real - and that is something I can believe in.
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Reply with quote  #27 
Yes, and all the psychic abilities
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Alan Smithee

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Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ

It seems that nowadays the mere mention of certain things can create rifts.  I think that is sad, but it is what it is and we have a choice in how we deal with it.


Indeed, and considering how many mindreaders there are hereabouts, merely thinking certain things can cause hiccoughs.

Which is why I hope this comment adds a hint of light. I tried to do the same with this earlier post:

"Agreed. But I don't believe the beliefs are beyond criticism.

Example: I believe the world is round(ish) not flat.

Remembering "Capricorn One," I don't know whether I believe in the moon landings".
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TheAmazingStanley

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Smithee


Indeed, and considering how many mindreaders there are hereabouts, merely thinking certain things can cause hiccoughs.

Which is why I hope this comment adds a hint of light. I tried to do the same with this earlier post:

"Agreed. But I don't believe the beliefs are beyond criticism.

Example: I believe the world is round(ish) not flat.

Remembering "Capricorn One," I don't know whether I believe in the moon landings".


Take any belief, no matter how out of the mainstream it is, and you will find intelligent educated people who believe it. I know people who can dance intellectual circles around me who believe things that from my point of view are just bonkers. I’m not sure what to make of that. Either insanity affects all walks of life, or I should be a little humble in assessing the beliefs of others.

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