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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #1 
I ordered a set of ESP cards 25 of them for John Bannon's ESP By The Numbers which can be found in his book Mentalissimo.

The f***e is pretty self working and has a double prediction, al well, just have a look.



Do you think this will fool laypeople? Do you have a better suggestion for predicting the order of the cards?

I can't talk to much about it without revealling the method, so watch the clip and tell me what you think,ok?

Thanks,

MP-





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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #2 
Fooling for laypersons?  Yes!  Very fun and fooling trick.  Personally, I wouldn't change a thing.  I don't even know if the 2nd climax is necessary.
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Mbreggar

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Reply with quote  #3 
Totally agree with Ray. John's tricks are extremely well thought-out and structured. John also takes the time to examine the presentation of his tricks from many different angles and "choreographies". In a trick with multiple climaxes, reveals, endings, etc. you can be certain John has tried every permutation to learn which has the most impact!
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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #4 
Thanks guys...

I just didn't want to mark up a brand new Zener deck with numbers, if there was a better way of doing it.

Rick-

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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mind Phantom
Thanks guys...

I just didn't want to mark up a brand new Zener deck with numbers, if there was a better way of doing it.

Rick-


Try it and gauge the reaction without the numbers first.  
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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #6 
Yes, will do.

I have my Mind Control script if anybody is interested in that sort of thing...

https://www.themagiciansforum.com/post/mind-control-10440082

Rick-

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Alan Smithee

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mind Phantom
Thanks guys...

I just didn't want to mark up a brand new Zener deck with numbers, if there was a better way of doing it.

Rick-


Not sure what you mean here. I thought the trick came complete with numbered cards. If not, just what do we get for the money?
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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #8 
I bought the Zener cards from a on-line magic dealer ( Bicycle Backed ) , I learned of the trick from the book Mentalissimo which I got from Rudy.

I would have to mark the cards with numbers to do the trick in the clip.

What do you think of my Mind Control Script using the cards ?

MP-

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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #9 
My take on the second climax is that for some people it might actually be a negative.  Any time a prediction is revealed to be pre-printed, such as on the back of a card, for example, it might smack of "too perfect", leading them to the conclusion that it was no coincidence but a force.  They might not know how the number was forced, but they know it had to be. 

Different schools of thought on multiple reveals of course.  That's why I suggested doing it without the number climax first to see what the response is.  Then compare that to the response with the second reveal.
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jim ferguson

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ
My take on the second climax is that for some people it might actually be a negative.  Any time a prediction is revealed to be pre-printed, such as on the back of a card, for example, it might smack of "too perfect", leading them to the conclusion that it was no coincidence but a force.  They might not know how the number was forced, but they know it had to be. 

Different schools of thought on multiple reveals of course.  That's why I suggested doing it without the number climax first to see what the response is.  Then compare that to the response with the second reveal.




I have similar thoughts. I prefer not to use a printed prediction, because to me it gives the impression that the piece has the same outcome every time, which only leads to some kind of force.

HOWEVER, it could probably work with a presentation such as Mind Phantom suggests.



Jim


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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim ferguson




I have similar thoughts. I prefer not to use a printed prediction, because to me it gives the impression that the piece has the same outcome every time, which only leads to some kind of force.

HOWEVER, it could probably work with a presentation such as Mind Phantom suggests.



Jim




I'm probably as guilty as anyone in over-thinking, but my reaction would be that it had to be pre-determined and for that reason it is no longer magical or mystical or a psychic effect and merely a puzzle.

Feel free to disagree!
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jim ferguson

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Reply with quote  #12 
I certainly see what you're saying, Ray, and for the most part I agree with you.

It is why I never do anything with a printed prediction. Things like the sharpie with the name of a playing card printed on it, or a printed reveal on the card box - to me these scream of some kind of force. Like you said, they may not know HOW the card was forced, but any thinking spectator is going to know it couldn't have been a real free choice - the trick clearly only works with that particular card, every time.

By contrast, a prediction that is for instance, written on a piece of paper in real-time, can seem it is unique to that particular performance.



Jim

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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim ferguson
I certainly see what you're saying, Ray, and for the most part I agree with you.

It is why I never do anything with a printed prediction. Things like the sharpie with the name of a playing card printed on it, or a printed reveal on the card box - to me these scream of some kind of force. Like you said, they may not know HOW the card was forced, but any thinking spectator is going to know it couldn't have been a real free choice - the trick clearly only works with that particular card, every time.

By contrast, a prediction that is for instance, written on a piece of paper in real-time, can seem it is unique to that particular performance.



Jim



Agreed! So if someone uses the 2nd climax, I suggest it either be a written number or a "randomly" chosen number. You mentalists know better than me, but I know there's several ways to force numbers while appearing totally fair.
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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim ferguson


It is why I never do anything with a printed prediction. Things like the sharpie with the name of a playing card printed on it, or a printed reveal on the card box - to me these scream of some kind of force. 



That's been my thinking all along.

Thanks a lot you guys ( Rayj, Jim Ferguson ) for helping me out on this routine !

I will try this out on people and see how it goes over..again thanks.

Rick-

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Alan Smithee

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Reply with quote  #15 
Derek Dingle was the master of the kicker, but for me he always went far too far. Too many extra effects and the audience wonders what's going on here. The cards must be arranged. There have always been kickers, of course, but Dingle set something in motion and it's never stopped. Some of them work, some don't. This works inasmuch as it's a kicker and it's a surprise. 

But it's too pat. Jim and Rayj are correct in that regard. The forever problem with number forces is that if it's the same number, it has to look like it isn't. Until the card is turned over, everything looks fair and random.

But I suspect it's the package that appeals to many magicians. And that's what Bannon is selling, of course.
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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #16 
I've had my cards for three days now..

And I"ve used my script, but something seems missing I am thinking about the way DB does some of his reveals, you know, " Stand up straight, palms up " pseudo body language positions to get a hit one what the next card is coming up.

It's just an idea. People do seem interested in my mind control script, so more work needs to be done.

MP-

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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mind Phantom
I've had my cards for three days now..

And I"ve used my script, but something seems missing I am thinking about the way DB does some of his reveals, you know, " Stand up straight, palms up " pseudo body language positions to get a hit one what the next card is coming up.

It's just an idea. People do seem interested in my mind control script, so more work needs to be done.

MP-


Have you been doing only the initial reveal?  
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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ


Have you been doing only the initial reveal?  


Yes. And people find the story more interesting then the trick lol. It might be that I am presenting it all wrong, but I doubt it.

I don't think I have done it enough with enough people yet.

This is a very quick paced effect after the story is told.

I think this is going to be a work in progress.

Rick-

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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mind Phantom


Yes. And people find the story more interesting then the trick lol. It might be that I am presenting it all wrong, but I doubt it.

I don't think I have done it enough with enough people yet.

This is a very quick paced effect after the story is told.

I think this is going to be a work in progress.

Rick-


Actually, you bring up a good point and that is don't let the story completely overshadow the trick.  It can work in reverse, a trick can be strong enough to counter little-to-no patter.

Ideally, you want harmony.
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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #20 
Yes, I want harmony.

I've added a overhand shuffle ( a false one ) to the pack of 25 cards to make the illusion better that the cards are not in order.

Also, since this is about mind control...I have decided to write the symbols out after each NLP or body language ploy to make the story more harmonious, so I am not making a all out prediction of the five symbols at once.

This may or may not work because the spectator still has to choose a postition from 1 to 5 each time. And I am supposed to be influencing their choice with isn't happening here.

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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #21 
I think I have my script problem worked out here in making a prediction and keeping the mind control patter in the routine.

I was sitting down watching TV when the idea hit me...and I said to myself " that's a great idea ". Just goes to show how a little bit of persistence will work for you. An idea with come to you when you least expect it.

Now, I just need to go out and do this some more.

Rick,

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