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Waterman

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Reply with quote  #1 
I used to roll my eyes after some magicians left Dave's Killer Magic Shop without making a purchase. It wasn't because I wanted the shop to make money and thrive as a local business and supplier to local magician's (which of course I did), but more so because of the reason behind their leaving the shop empty-handed.

The theory started going around that spectators were getting the secrets via internet searches either after leaving a magic show, or worse, during the show itself. Most of the effects that came through the shop were advertised by the top internet magic suppliers and one customer made it a habit to show me how easily one could trace an effect by typing in a vague description of the trick.

Finally, I asked this gentleman to tell me if he had been subjected to this during, or after a performance. He responded sarcastically that he wasn't sure, as he doesn't make it a habit to  follow his spectators home after a show to see what they do during their personal time...but  he was certain more and more spectators were turning to Google to learn our secrets and ruin the opportunity for working magicians to make a decent living. 

Over time I discussed/read these same concerns from a number of other magicians ranging from customers at the shop, fellow local magicians, and folks who post on magic related forums. There is in fact a growing concern over this practice, yet personally I have not encountered it. Obviously, that doesn't mean it isn't a concern we should be worried about.

I perform yearly for my school at several functions. My show is pretty much the same year after year. So far I have never been approached by a student who has searched Google to figure out how I performed my "tricks". In fact, it's usually the opposite. Students I had years ago who are now in High School/College will cross paths with me and conversation always leads to magic...questions like, "How did you link those rings together?", or "How did you get the Orange under the cup?" indicate one of two things. 

1.Spectators have better things to do with their time than Google how a magic trick works.

2. People enjoy watching magic and like the feeling of being mystified.


On the other hand I have also had students tell me that they learned the secret of a particular trick they saw on TV by doing a Google search. It's usually a trick they will probably never witness in their lifetime (Vanishing of the Statue of Liberty), or more often than not it's a student who is more interested in learning magic than just figuring out the secrets. For the record, card tricks (surprise, surprise) are the most popular genre to Google ,or search on YouTube by the students I encounter at school.

Of course experiences with this subject will vary greatly. Interested in hearing thoughts...and more specifically if an effect or two is no longer in your performance arsenal due to this type of exposure! 
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #2 
This is what pops up when you search 'fake thumb'. If they catch a glimpse, they might be lead here...

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Anthony Vinson

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Reply with quote  #3 
Pull that offending thorn from your side, bind your wound, ungird your loins, and make peace with the world as it is! The genii is out of the bottle; Pandora has unleashed the plagues.  

Some will search. Most won't. Of those who do search, some will share. Most won't. If a couple of the searchers are bitten by the magic bug, so much the better for us all. 

Ten years from now there will be no secrets. General AI assistants will be always at the ready to answer questions, supply sources, and even provide basic instruction. Magic will survive. Mankind? Not so certain. [cool]

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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #4 
I think Anthony is correct. AI will reach the point where it will "watch" a magic trick on video and tell you how to do it, step by step i.e. it will teach you to do the trick. It might come up with a method better than the one actually used.

The only solution is to convince people that it's in their best interest NOT to know. There are many people who are in this camp already. We've all heard "I don't want to know! This is wonderful."

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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #5 
Knowing how something is done isn't the same as being able to do it yourself.  Most people like music.  They may like folk, country, bluegrass, classical, rock, jazz, but they like music.  You can buy an instrument and learn how to play it from the internet.  My youngest daughter has taught herself the Ukelele and the guitar with help from the internet.  She is a singer/songwriter and can compose her own music.  She can do that because she has the ability.

Someone may see her play and want to also learn how to do it.  If they persist they might just be successful.  

It can work that way with magic too.  Someone who is motivated can surely find how to do tricks with a few clicks.  They might get bitten by the bug, as AV suggests, they may not.  

Some do like to be fooled.  There was a youtube video posted of a performance by Asi Wind.  He asked the audience if they wanted to know how he did a trick and a lady in the audience shook her head "no".  Most indicated yes.  She was the smart one, because she understood that the fun is in the not knowing.  That to know is to lose the feeling of amazement, or astonishment as Paul Harris refers to it.

So is the example of a musical instrument similar to searching for magic tricks?  Yes and no.  Yes, if the person doing the search is interested in magic.  No, if they aren't.  If they are only wanting to know how the "dirty work" is accomplished it does not further the art.  In my opinion it damages it.  They are privy to the methods magicians use to fool.  Depending upon the trick they find exposed they may learn way more than we'd care for them to.  And they can't "un-see" it.

Will it cause them to appreciate magic more or less?  I'll leave that to others to figure out.  I promised myself I wouldn't get upset over exposure anymore and am trying hard to live up to the pact.

The difference between the two examples I gave, to me, is that in one instance, music, you have something where there is no mystery, no inherent deception.  What you see, or hear in this case, is what you get.  By learning more about it you become better able to appreciate a good musician from a not-so-good musician.  But in the end, there is no damage.

With magic, once that box is opened, there is a loss of mystery.  I think we, as a group, should take care to help preserve that mystery as much as possible.  As I've said before, all magic organizations and most web forums have rules against exposure.  That is so the secrets, the methods, the misdirection, all of the modus operandi are preserved.  It is a form of respect.  Respect for the art.

This, to me, is real magic....

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Jim Straight

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Reply with quote  #6 
I agree with those who say the cat's out of the bag. If people want to know, they will look it up and find out.

What's more important is if our magic is entertaining or not. I think of two performances I've seen recently. Someone did a card-under-box type routine at our club recently. Of course I know how it's done. But it was still fun to watch and enjoy that I had been misdirected at the right time.

The second was the linking rings. I am not a big fan of that trick. It's just not for me. I saw someone make a very entertaining performance this summer of the rings.

Dan, that was you.
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Magic Harry

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Reply with quote  #7 
As Ray stated people can have an interest in a subject like Music and search it on Google but it doesn't make them a musician. The same with magic they might be able to learn the bare method but it doesn't make them an entertainer and their audiences will see that.
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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #8 
Don't forget that many, many tricks will not be searchable, especially things that are procedure heavy. Try typing this into google - "Cards are dealt into two piles. Then the top cards are turned over. Now I deal down to the number shown on the top card and the two cards match." I doubt that a search will yield the method.

Also, many will find a method that doesn't match what you're doing as in "The magician waved his hand over the card and it changed." How many ways can that be done? So we may hear things like "I thought I knew how that was done. But that's not what you're doing. Holy smokes!"

You may even be able to convince specs that your linking rings don't have a key ring. They really are solid as with a locking key with great handling. The spec feels like she's examining all the rings etc. So, hopefully, the spec tells her friends that they're wrong about the gap. The magician that she saw let her examine the rings and there was no gap.

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Waterman

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Straight
I agree with those who say the cat's out of the bag. If people want to know, they will look it up and find out.

What's more important is if our magic is entertaining or not. I think of two performances I've seen recently. Someone did a card-under-box type routine at our club recently. Of course I know how it's done. But it was still fun to watch and enjoy that I had been misdirected at the right time.

The second was the linking rings. I am not a big fan of that trick. It's just not for me. I saw someone make a very entertaining performance this summer of the rings.

Dan, that was you.



Thanks for the compliment Jim! I'm glad you enjoyed the rings!!!


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Stevie Ray

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Reply with quote  #10 
Performing multi phased routines… Avoiding titles or phrases like “crazy man’s handcuffs” or “ambitious” ... using different methods to manipulate the same object... that should leave even the most tenacious cyber-punk googled to exhaustion.
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Comte de Saint Germain

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Reply with quote  #11 
I have a friend I enjoy showing card effects, who frequently tells me he's going to youtube to try to figure it out.  (I don't think he does this as often as he insinuates.) I often smile and say, "you won't find any of these on youtube."

The thing is there are so many techniques to accomplish similar things, forcing cards, key cards, memorized deck, forcing deck, Svengali etc.  Not that I use gimmicks, but they are a plausible explanation.

In any case, I stay away from the double lift around him, because that one might be easy to look up. I'm not concerned he could figure out an effect, but I'm wary he'd tell others.

Over the past year, he's never told me he discovered the secret to anything I've shown him, and I don't think he could suppress it if he had.  Add to that, he's reasonably intelligent, so I don't think his lack of discoveries can be attributed to ham-fisted search fields.

And as Stevie Ray mentioned, I never say, okay this is the such and such trick. Do magicians do that for spectators?
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Comte de Saint Germain
I have a friend I enjoy showing card effects, who frequently tells me he's going to youtube to try to figure it out.  (I don't think he does this as often as he insinuates.) I often smile and say, "you won't find any of these on youtube."

The thing is there are so many techniques to accomplish similar things, forcing cards, key cards, memorized deck, forcing deck, Svengali etc.  Not that I use gimmicks, but they are a plausible explanation.

In any case, I stay away from the double lift around him, because that one might be easy to look up. I'm not concerned he could figure out an effect, but I'm wary he'd tell others.

Over the past year, he's never told me he discovered the secret to anything I've shown him, and I don't think he could suppress it if he had.  Add to that, he's reasonably intelligent, so I don't think his lack of discoveries can be attributed to ham-fisted search fields.

And as Stevie Ray mentioned, I never say, okay this is the such and such trick. Do magicians do that for spectators?


Regarding your last question, "Do magicians do that for spectators?", yes, I've actually heard some do it.

I remember a magician doing an introduction to an effect and said something like, "I will now demonstrate my version of a famous trick called Twisting the Aces."  

But even if they don't, just saying "I will now present the Chinese Linking Rings" will be enough for them to search for if they are so inclined.


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EVILDAN

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Reply with quote  #13 
People are lazy. Unless they really, really want to know how a trick is done, I don’t think they’ll take the time to look. Magic has been in libraries for years, we’ve survived. There used to be a lot more brick and mortar shops where people could go and buy a trick or book said learn how it’s done. We’ve survived.

Of course, to lessen the chance it would be nice if magicians didn’t call tricks by their trade names. I knew a mentalist who was posting about an upcoming gig and said that he was working in a new book test. What the heck is a book test? Google that and you’ll find tons of them.

When I perform at a festival I always perform Color Monte which has to be one of the best all time selling packet tricks. I have yet to have someone tell me how it’s done, I have yet to have anyone tell me they had seen it before. And that blows me away!!! So, I think we’ll survive.

Also, just because someone says “How did you do that?” doesn’t mean they really want to know. Think about how many times you say “Hi, how are you doing?” to someone. I say it a lot and DO NOT expect them to stop and fill me in. It’s a greeting. It’s something to say. And I think sometimes people see magic that sucks, don’t know how to respond so they go the polite route and say “How did you do that?” Not only do they not want to know, they don’t even want to see any more bad magic.

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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #14 
There's a huge difference between going to a library and googling on your phone. Plus I don't know about your library but mine is bereft of magic books. Especially any worth reading.
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EVILDAN

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Reply with quote  #15 
Any library can get any book requested. My post was referring to cell phones, but just saying the info has been there all along.

Just to go back to how lazy people are, have you ever had anyone ask you something, some kind of info, like what time is it, what’s the weather like outside, or do you know a store’s hours when YOU would have to look up that info to tell them and they have a cell phone where they can find the same info they’re asking you for? Because I have - I get this all the time.
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Robin Dawes

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Reply with quote  #16 
There's a website letmegooglethat.com that I get a kick out of.   It's designed to give you a way of providing people with information they have asked for, while showing them that they could easily have found it themselves.   The website shows you something that looks like the Google home page but when you enter a query and click on the Search button, it generates a URL that you can copy and give to whoever asked you for information.  When they click on the URL you give them, it shows them a little animation of the Google home page with the query appearing letter by letter, then the cursor clicks on the search button for them.  A momentary message appears saying "Come on, was that really so hard?" ... and then it gives them the result of the actual Google search.

I guess it's a bit snarky ... but I have had experiences similar to EVILDAN's .  Students come to my office with questions about the courses they need to take and other administrative stuff ... so we sit there and google it together.

On the other hand, I have often been in conversations with a group of young students where I throw in a reference to something that happened in the distant past (like in the 1970's) and suddenly one of the students will throw in an obscure but relevant piece of information that I would never have expected them to know.  Of course, they didn't know until just that moment - they googled the topic while I was talking!

As for people googling magic, I once had a student say "I'm going to look that up on Google" when I showed her some magic.  I said "Don't do that - it will spoil it for you."  and she told me later that she never did.   I'd like to think it's true.
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Bob Farmer

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Reply with quote  #17 
If you must use the title of a trick in your presentation, use the title of something completely unrelated. For example, if doing, "Twisting The Aces," call it the "Origami Illusion," or the "Four Burglars," of the "Dove Pan." 
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Alan Smithee

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Reply with quote  #18 
More later, perhaps, in the meanwhile, this is interesting. It covers the subject of exposure in general.

https://www.themagiciansforum.com/post/a-perspective-with-exposure-7907310?highlight=exposure
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Smithee
More later, perhaps, in the meanwhile, this is interesting. It covers the subject of exposure in general.

https://www.themagiciansforum.com/post/a-perspective-with-exposure-7907310?highlight=exposure


It is difficult to form an agreement unless we deal in specifics. Exposure takes on different forms. I'm not going to lose sleep over someone posting the secret to his favorite 21 Card Trick for example. But how about sharing a proprietary trick or sleight? If you want to learn Chad Long's Clipshift you can either purchase it or look it up on YouTube for free. Can't we all agree that is bad? If not for magic at least for Mr. Long?

Or the threads devoted to explaining everything that was on Fool Us last night?

We can't put the genii back into the bottle but serious magicians should still be taught to behave in a manner which protects and preserves secrets.

The general trend I see is apathy towards exposure. I'm in the opposite camp. Getting lonelier all the time.
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SamtheNotasBadasIWas

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Reply with quote  #20 
I will say that I think the orininal question of whether or not Youtube is hurting magic is the wrong question to ask. I think the right question to ask is now that we have Youtube, how are we going to use it to promote good magic?
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamtheNotsoMagnificent
I will say that I think the orininal question of whether or not Youtube is hurting magic is the wrong question to ask. I think the right question to ask is now that we have Youtube, how are we going to use it to promote good magic?


Sam, I like your lemons out of lemonade approach.  We can't control what gets posted to youtube, but perhaps over time, some guidelines at least could be followed.

Here are some that I think should get consideration:

1.  If you wish to post a video of yourself performing a trick, make certain that your 
     performance is the best it can be and that it doesn't expose the secret.  Make 
     multiple recordings and use the best one.  Hey, at least you are getting some 
     practice in.  Watch each one before recording the next so that you can improve
     with each "take".

2.  Give credit where credit is due.  Far too many videos have comments below the   
     "performance" where the poster is credited for the sleight or routine, which the
     original poster had nothing whatsoever to do with.

3.  Do not expose anything that you don't have the right to.  Especially if it is a product
     that is currently for sale.  Only effects that have sort of become "commonplace" and
     are "in the public domain" so to speak, should be considered.  In other words, go 
     ahead and do your personal version of 3 Card Monte, but don't expose Michael
     Skinner's version.  It is still for sale and part of what you are buying is the secret.

4.  Have the decency to get dressed and pick up the laundry off of the floor.  Show
     a little respect for our craft.  Please refrain from using profanity.

5.  If you are going to explain existing routines, credit the originator.  If you don't know
     the originator, why are you sharing it?  Find out the history of the effect and maybe
     then come back.  For sleights, the same rules apply.  Give credit wherever possible.

Many, many more "rules" come to mind, but I'll stop there.  The biggest trick would be to get folks to understand why they are important.  Many will dismiss them outright.  But 
to just give up and accept the status quo doesn't sound appealing to me.  If even a small percentage begin to up their game, maybe more will follow?  There are what I would call good examples on youtube.  I still disagree with the exposure, but at least they adhere to most if not all of the ideas I shared above.  




      
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Chris Karim

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Reply with quote  #22 
My thinking on this has evolved recently.

I used to assume that many audience members would be doing the google search thing after the show.
Then I assumed they would do it if they had a specific way to search ("That magician guy said ambitious card, let me look that up").
  • The solutions I came up with for both of the above is to embed the method more deeply and NEVER say stuff like "billets" or "ambitious card", etc.

My current thinking is a bit different:
They will only look it up if it actually interested and intrigued them.  People aren't going to look up stuff they found boring or transparent. 

So now, I HOPE they look it up.  If they don't, I can only assume they stopped caring the second I stopped performing.  Maybe if they see me, they'll be like: "Oh hey, how DID you know what shape I was thinking of?", but I often wonder if it is just an association and not actual interest.  Sort of if I see my kid's kindergarten teacher several years later, I might ask "I'm still amazed how you are able to handle 24 5 year olds at the same time, how do you do it?"  But I don't actually care about her cat herding techniques, it's just a conversational hook and the easiest way to talk to her.

However, assuming I WANT them to Google it, things get much harder; I need to design my effects (or use effects) such that they can't even formulate a good google search.
Example:
  • R.M.R. from Architect of the Mind: what can their search term possibly be?  "Reverse mind reading", "card disappears from deck", "think of a card"?  All bring results so vague and so far from what they experienced that a Google search is meaningless


Those are just some of my thoughts, this is a good discussion.  Here are a couple of blog posts about this to consider:

Dear Jerxy: The Google Conundrum: http://www.thejerx.com/blog/2019/8/22/dear-jerxy-the-google-conundrum 


8 Ways to Make Your Magic Un-Googleable:  http://www.thejerx.com/blog/2016/8/2/steps-to-make-your-magic-un-googleable

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Waterman

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Reply with quote  #23 
I find that the spectators who are dead set on figuring out the methods are already processing "logical" explanations in their mind. More often than not these folks have a sensitive ego and feel that they figured out the secret themselves rather than resort to Google.

Back in Pennsylvania I attended a magic show (before Al Gore invented the internet) with a non-magician friend. He enjoyed the performance, but afterwards over a few beers he proceeded to tell me in a matter-of-fact tone how each of the effects were accomplished.

Although he was close to divining the secrets to a few effects, his assumptions regarding the rest were way off...even comical. His persistence for me to validate his thoughts put me in an interesting position. I initially told him that as a magician I cant share secrets...even if affirming someone's correct guess to the method. My friends response was to gloat with pleasure with the logic that his guesses were correct and that I simply was abiding by my magicians oath by not acknowledging his theories.

For arguments sake I asked him if  he guessed correctly on how the tricks were done, would it change his perception of the show we just witnessed. His response surprised me. He answered by saying he would actually be more impressed. The fact that someone who knows the secret to a trick, but can still be entertained...even fooled by it.. demonstrates the time and practice a magician puts into making it magical. His thoughts were that maybe magicians were too focused on guarding secrets than performing the tricks. Interesting perception coming from a laymen.

I know , as do most of us here, that even though we can watch an effect that is familiar to us in how it's accomplished, it can still be damn magical and fun to watch. I NEVER would have pursued practicing/performing the linking rings had I not seen Chris Capehart perform at a convention almost 30 years ago. After his routine I almost convinced myself that he was using a new kind of gimmick to do the rings!! I found a dealer at the convention who had Chris' Three Ring Stars of Magic Routine Manuscript for sale. My heart beat wildly when handing over the cash for it. I sheepishly asked the vendor if I needed a special set of rings for it. He laughed out loud knowing why a person...even an experienced magician...would ask that question after seeing Chris do it live.

[smile]




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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterman
I find that the spectators who are dead set on figuring out the methods are already processing "logical" explanations in their mind. More often than not these folks have a sensitive ego and feel that they figured out the secret themselves rather than resort to Google.

Back in Pennsylvania I attended a magic show (before Al Gore invented the internet) with a non-magician friend. He enjoyed the performance, but afterwards over a few beers he proceeded to tell me in a matter-of-fact tone how each of the effects were accomplished.

Although he was close to divining the secrets to a few effects, his assumptions regarding the rest were way off...even comical. His persistence for me to validate his thoughts put me in an interesting position. I initially told him that as a magician I cant share secrets...even if affirming someone's correct guess to the method. My friends response was to gloat with pleasure with the logic that his guesses were correct and that I simply was abiding by my magicians oath by not acknowledging his theories.

For arguments sake I asked him if  he guessed correctly on how the tricks were done, would it change his perception of the show we just witnessed. His response surprised me. He answered by saying he would actually be more impressed. The fact that someone who knows the secret to a trick, but can still be entertained...even fooled by it.. demonstrates the time and practice a magician puts into making it magical. His thoughts were that maybe magicians were too focused on guarding secrets than performing the tricks. Interesting perception coming from a laymen.

I know , as do most of us here, that even though we can watch an effect that is familiar to us in how it's accomplished, it can still be damn magical and fun to watch. I NEVER would have pursued practicing/performing the linking rings had I not seen Chris Capehart perform at a convention almost 30 years ago. After his routine I almost convinced myself that he was using a new kind of gimmick to do the rings!! I found a dealer at the convention who had Chris' Three Ring Stars of Magic Routine Manuscript for sale. My heart beat wildly when handing over the cash for it. I sheepishly asked the vendor if I needed a special set of rings for it. He laughed out loud knowing why a person...even an experienced magician...would ask that question after seeing Chris do it live.

[smile]






Dan, I hear what you are saying but I'd rather my audience be fooled than just impressed by my abilities.  

Your example pertains more to magicians as spectators in my mind.  I'm not saying I'm incapable of being fooled, but it doesn't happen all that often where I have no idea.  Sure, I'm still impressed.  But that just isn't the same.  

Not knowing they did a top change is a lot better than marveling at how smooth it was.
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Waterman

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Reply with quote  #25 
I totally get your perspective Ray...and I truly believe that our audiences, especially those who pay to see a magic show, are doing so to enjoy the feeling of being fooled. Our audiences are as diverse as the magicians who display their feats to the masses. My experience with audience members who Google, or can become difficult, are the ones who happen to watch while I perform informally at a bar or restaurant for friends and family. More often they are under the influence of drinking too much and/or fall under the category of "Bar Bully" and will do anything to divert attention back to them.

I think that most spectators fall into the category who WON'T seek out explanations, but rather enjoy the moments of astonishment which the magician provides. Others will give it a shot to try and figure it out independently and give up after they realize they still have no idea, and still others who may seek out answers through Google or on-line magic shops. I believe this latter group isn't doing it to undermine the art of magic, but more so the same reason I sought out the secrets when I was a kid...to possibly see if I could become a magician myself...I may be dead wrong on all counts, but it's this rationale that helps my confidence  when I perform for real people. Although I might be an exception, rarely has the availability to search and expose magic through current technology made me reconsider taking anything out of my act that I might feel too vulnerable for a Google search.


Given my perspective, it still remains that information today is more accessible than ever. It can serve mankind for the better, or bring him to his knees. Honestly, a kid today can figure out how to make an explosive device as easily as they can search a thumb-tip. Crazy world...however, I am optimistic that magic will continue to thrive despite the thorn technology may be in our side.



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SethHoward

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Reply with quote  #26 
Hey Dan, 

Long time no see! I was reading through this and I can totally relate. As to your first point in your original post, magicians rarely buy anything at a magic shop. At least in my experience. When I was managing White Rabbit, I would say 10-15% of business was magicians. Most cases, those were special orders of items. Most customers we had were a.)hobbyists or b.)saw the Alien UFO Yo
A lot of people would buy the trick just to learn how it works. 
It could have been since our location was in a mall with a lot of tourist traffic most of our customers were gift purchases or curiosity. A lot of magicians that would stop by the shop, wanted to see the latest and then ask how it was done without purchasing. That was really unfortunate. 
As far as today's generation and magic. Yes, more and more people are googling magic tricks. Last summer, I went back home to Kansas and did a show for all my nieces and nephews. Just a standard kid's show, they all enjoyed it, they all were clamoring for Uncle Seth to tell them how I did the tricks. Of course I didn't tell them how but it was funny to see them on youtube and google for the next couple of hours trying to find the answers. The key is, only a couple of hours. Audiences are curious but it eventually wears off. 
Now, if they remained curious, those are the ones that would come back to the shop and hopefully get hooked and a new magician was created. 

Thankfully, there is always a new crop of magicians sprouting up. Whether it's because of youtube, a magic special on tv, or seeing magic live. 

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Waterman

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Reply with quote  #27 
Seth Howard! What a coincidence!! I just found out you had set up a business in Astoria...Whiskey Bar?! Congrats!!!

Great to hear another perspective on this topic. I think the more we band together to share our varying perspectives, the easier it might be to come to terms with it in some way,shape,or form. It's hard sometimes to accept our changing world.

Honestly, as a teacher, I would rather have my students using Google to figure out how I made a quarter disappear than use it to watch pornography, vicious street fights, or music that encourages violence.

That being said, I hope you are able to make it through this tough time with your business. Once Governor Brown re-opens the State, I hope to make a trip down to check out your place!
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SethHoward

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Reply with quote  #28 
Well, the long and short of it, yes I did open a whiskey bar but I'm no longer involved with it. Unfortunately you discover the worst in people when you open a business with them. Needless to say, I sold my ownership. Although, it does still have my grandmother's name on it. 

Funny enough, next plan is to open a magic shop. Almost signed a lease at the beginning of the month. Glad I didn't now after all of this. 

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Reply with quote  #29 
Sorry about the whiskey bar...but best of luck with the magic shop. Keep us updated on the progress...

Look forward to seeing you soon.
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EVILDAN

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Reply with quote  #30 
I’m a magician and I’ve never heard of most of these exposure sites. Go figure.
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVILDAN
I’m a magician and I’ve never heard of most of these exposure sites. Go figure.

Perhaps because you respect the art and seek information in the ethical manner?
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVILDAN
I’m a magician and I’ve never heard of most of these exposure sites. Go figure.


There has been a cultural shift over the years that has helped to fuel the current behavior. I'm going to try to explain my point and do so in a way that doesn't offend. For that reason I will try to refrain from any labeling.

It used to be that people expected to pay for things. Common sense, right? Not anymore. Today, many people have huge audio and video libraries with no investment other than a medium to store them on.

They can find free wi-fi, so that's covered. Many artists know this and have any postings of their product removed from the Internet when they can. Garth Brooks and The Eagles come to mind. Garth even set up a whole service similar to iTunes to combat it.

When many of us were young we couldn't wait to get a driver's license and buy our first car. Now many teens cannot drive and don't care. It is a different world. Ownership isn't the goal today. Paying for things isn't assumed.

In magic, the "piracy" used to be reading a secret and telling someone else verbally or in a letter. Then came Xerox. I have magic books where the author specifically calls readers out for the practice. Paul Harris for example.

Then there is "gang buying" where a bunch who cannot each afford to own several books pool their money and then share the books back-and -forth.

Next was video, then .pdf files and it became super easy to obtain magic for free. There used to be forums where people would post something like "hey, I'm looking for Vernon's Inner Secrets, can trade Marlo's Magazine #1 for it". They still do it, just not as brashly.

I walked into a Wisconsin magic shop one day and was shocked to find they were renting currently-available DVDs. Heck why buy when you can rent? Shame on them.

The Internet now makes it even easier than ever. Want to learn a sleight and not pay? Simple, google it!
Clip Shift? No problem. Even have several showing ho to do it so you can pick your favorite.

Chad Long? Who is he? He invented it and sold books and DVDs about it. Well, I guess it sucks to be him.

There is no way we can expect everyone to immediately stop this behavior. I'm sure even some that frequent this forum have benefited from "alternative" methods of appropriation.

So there it is. People would always like to have something for nothing. Now many expect it.

I know many will disagree, and that's fine. I am confident in my beliefs and that alone makes some uncomfortable. That's OK too. But think about what you CAN do about this rather than just give up and give in. Me, I report what I believe are outright abuses of people's livelihoods. I don't just grumble and do nothing.

Recently that National Emergency Library thing came up. Harry Lorayne was surprised to find several of his books listed. I stepped up to help. He may not know it but I'm confident most all of his books have been scanned and shared on various sites. It's his income being abused.
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