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dschmunis

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Reply with quote  #1 
Hi all,

I'm putting together a quick and simple routine with a half dollar and two copper/silver coins.

At the end I end up with the half dollar and the gimmick "half dollar" side up on the table and I'd like to find a way to show the tree coins as real half before putting them away. Obviously this requires some switching of the real half for the gimmicks as I show one at a time.

Any ideas or resources on where to learn some good switch and display moves would be much appreciated.

Stay safe and stay healthy!
Diego

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Tom G

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Reply with quote  #2 
There is a move you can do with a C/S coin to show both sides as silver.  Of course  you'll be showing the same side.  But it saves a number of extra moves just to show normal coins.  It also depends on the "school" you're from.  Some advocate not showing cards or coins as normal, as it indicates there might be coins or cards that aren't normal.  Others like to spread decks or flip coins to prove they are normal. 
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #3 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom G
There is a move you can do with a C/S coin to show both sides as silver.  Of course  you'll be showing the same side.  But it saves a number of extra moves just to show normal coins.  It also depends on the "school" you're from.  Some advocate not showing cards or coins as normal, as it indicates there might be coins or cards that aren't normal.  Others like to spread decks or flip coins to prove they are normal. 


Good points Tom!  Remember the Vernon quote, 

"Don`t make unimportant things important"

Dai Vernon

I think that quote can be stretched to include this situation.  How about casually tossing the coins onto the table?  After doing so, you pick them up and "accidentally" show the backs of two of them.  The audience will assume all are fair.  If you don't make an issue of it, they won't either.

On a related note, I've always wondered about the marketing of something as "new and improved!".  Does that mean the previous product was "old and crappy"?

In the same way, when you call attention to "these three, ordinary coins", the audience might start wondering if that is true and just what constitutes an "un-ordinary" coin.

Yes, you can do a paddle move with a coin.  Yes, there are transfers that apparently show both sides of each coin, Rick Holcombe demonstrated one beautifully in one of his videos.

But proving or over-proving sometimes just isn't necessary.

You may decide otherwise and that's fine.  The important thing is you reached out to ask and that's awesome.  Now take these responses and decide what YOU think is important.

And at the end of the day make it seem natural.
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Magic Harry

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Reply with quote  #4 
BoBo Switch comes to mind but that means you have to have an extra coin. I just mention this to offer an answer to your question, but I agree with the other answers. Don't over prove. Just act like they are ordinary and your audience will see nothing suspicious.
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jim ferguson

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Reply with quote  #5 
Hi, can you briefly describe the trick ? Is it possible to do using one c/s and two regular coins, instead of two gimmicks ?

There are a few different "moves" to apparently show both sides of a coin, while really showing the same side twice.
I bought a VHS tape around the year 2000 - it was a matrix style trick which used Black Art (this was before the Blackout coins were available, so the gimmicks had to be made by hand). Anyway, there were several techniques taught for apparently showing both sides of the gimmicked, which work just as well with a c/s coin. One of them was a tabled turnover, which might work well in your trick.

I'll have to check the video to see who the move is credited to, as I can't remember off hand. I think the video is unavailable, but the move may be published somewhere else.



Jim




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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #6 
Think "Flushtration Move", but with coins.  You can peel off one coin and then show the other two extremely fairly.
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jim ferguson

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Reply with quote  #7 
Hi again. The turnover I refer to in my above post is by David Stone.

I was just at the cafe, and by chance someone has posted the same question as you - the thread is in the "nothing up my sleeve" section. Vinni Marini has posted a short video in the thread demonstrating three different false turnovers - the second one is the one I was referring to.

If you decide to use this one, a nice tip (where possible), is to turn over two tabled coins at the same time - one in each hand. So you could have a regular silver coin, and your c/s gaff silver side up on the table - and both coins are apparently turned over simultaneously.



Jim


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Tom G

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Reply with quote  #8 
The thing I was thinking of was slightly different, but closer to the first display on Vinny's video.   Whatever works and looks right.
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jim ferguson

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom G
The thing I was thinking of was slightly different, but closer to the first display on Vinny's video.   Whatever works and looks right.



I've been using something very similar (almost identical) to the first display, for many years. I came up with it independently, and had no idea it was "out there" until I saw Vinnys video today.



Jim


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Tom G

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Reply with quote  #10 
I'm trying to remember where the display I'm talking about came from....
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #11 
If you have the video downloads of the recent TMF Live event, and if you don't, why don't you?  Go to the section where Mike Powers and friends is and at the 43 minute mark, Rick Holcombe demonstrates a technique to accomplish exactly what you are wanting to do.  He does it will dollar-sized coins, but it works with any sizes.  His display is from a fan.  It's good, easy and works.

And I repeat, for $5.99, how can you not buy it?  The coin trick Rick shows is worth that much by itself.
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jim ferguson

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ
If you have the video downloads of the recent TMF Live event, and if you don't, why don't you?  Go to the section where Mike Powers and friends is and at the 43 minute mark, Rick Holcombe demonstrates a technique to accomplish exactly what you are wanting to do.  He does it will dollar-sized coins, but it works with any sizes.  His display is from a fan.  It's good, easy and works.

And I repeat, for $5.99, how can you not buy it?  The coin trick Rick shows is worth that much by itself.



If you're referring to the display Rick posted here, it won't work. Unless I'm mistaken, the OP is using three coins in the routine, but the audience is only aware of two. He is looking for a way to show two coins (one regular, and a c/s), as two regular coins.
The display Rick taught doesn't work with just two coins.



Jim





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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim ferguson



If you're referring to the display Rick posted here, it won't work. Unless I'm mistaken, the OP is using three coins in the routine, but the audience is only aware of two. He is looking for a way to show two coins (one regular, and a c/s), as two regular coins.
The display Rick taught doesn't work with just two coins.



Jim







You might be right.  But this is what threw me....

"I'd like to find a way to show the tree coins as real half "

I took that to mean three coins were in play.
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jim ferguson

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Reply with quote  #14 
The use of "tree" had me confused as well, Ray. After rereading the post again, especially the start of the sentence the "tree" is mentioned in, I assumed the "tree" was a mistake. The start of the sentence mentions two coins being on display - one regular, and a c/s coin. This brought me to the conclusion that while three coins are used, the audience is only aware of two.

I'm still not entirely sure if I'm correct though, which was why I asked if the OP could give a brief description of the piece.



Jim


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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim ferguson
The use of "tree" had me confused as well, Ray. After rereading the post again, especially the start of the sentence the "tree" is mentioned in, I assumed the "tree" was a mistake. The start of the sentence mentions two coins being on display - one regular, and a c/s coin. This brought me to the conclusion that while three coins are used, the audience is only aware of two.

I'm still not entirely sure if I'm correct though, which was why I asked if the OP could give a brief description of the piece.



Jim




I agree that clarification will help.  I posted a reply and then deleted it because I realized I was assuming he had two coins in a certain condition, and now I'm not sure which two coins he starts with or which sides are facing up!  

Hopefully the OP will return and help get it sorted.
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dschmunis

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Reply with quote  #16 
let me star by just saying WOW! I'm overwhelmed by all the awesome ideas, resources and comments base on my basic ask! You guys rock!

Ray, I love you first comment about not giving any importance to the coins or reasons to the spectators to be suspicious. My idea of displaying and "flipping" the coins at the end is meant to be a very casual move as I put the coins away and not trying to, in a more obvious way, prove anything to the spectators. But as I do finish with THREE (not "tree"  🤦‍♂️ sorry for the misspell) coins on the table I just wanted to add a very casual display as if I'm just playing with the coins as I put them away. Will experiment with the flushtration move and look up Mike Power's video (I did attend the lecture! 😉  ).

Jim, thank you for the lead about TMC thread. Found Vinny's video and will give them a try. 

To provide a bit of clarification on the routine...

  1. I use 1 half dollar and 2 C/S coins
  2. I display the 3 coins in the palm of my hand as (from the base to the fingers): regular half, C/s, S/c
  3. Remove the C/s leaving two silver coins showing 
  4. Close my and and bring back out c/S
  5. Open my had and display half and C/s
  6. I do this 2/3 times
  7. At the end with the original display:regular half, C/s, S/c I close my hand and when I open it up I spread the 3 coins on the table with 3 silver showing  (half, S/c, S/c - I'm left handed [wink] )
  8. It's at this point as I casually gather the coins to put them away that I'd like to display them as normal half
But as Tom and Ray pointed out, may be this is not needed?

Thanks for all the help and support! Happy Friday and stay safe and healthy!
D

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jim ferguson

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Reply with quote  #17 
So, just to clarify - you start with three coins in the hand, two silver and one copper. The copper is removed, and swaps places with one of the silvers - this is repeated once or twice. Then at the end the copper transforms to silver, leaving you with three silver coins.

Yes ?



Jim


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luigimar

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Reply with quote  #18 
Marcelo Contento (RIP) has a way to show a chip "both sides" while hiding one of them. It is on an effect I bought from him long time ago. As soon as I finish work I'll go downstairs to get the trick and give you the reference. It is a move that Michael Ammar also uses. It is difficult to describe and Marcelo himself taught me the move. If I have the time I will show you the move through video...

It can also be used with coins...

 

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dschmunis

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Reply with quote  #19 
Hi Jim,

Here's a quick video of the routine (sans patter). I fumbled the last display and FYI I'm brand new to magic and this is actually my first magic video so don't expect commercial quality! [wink]



Best,
D



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Magic Harry

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Reply with quote  #20 
Nicely done.
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dschmunis

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Reply with quote  #21 
PSA: I may be the last one to know but I figure I pass the info along given that we are talking about coins... Mr Michael Rubinstein is releasing a new book on Monday (RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC). You can purchase directly from him if you email: rubinsteindvm@aol.com [smile]

Happy Friday to you all!
D

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Tom G

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Reply with quote  #22 
For me I wouldn't prove the coins at the end, but people have to do what they feel is right.
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Jim McGowan

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Reply with quote  #23 
Sounds like Inferential Copper Silver by Kainoa Harbottle.

Jim
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jim ferguson

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dschmunis
Hi Jim,

Here's a quick video of the routine (sans patter). I fumbled the last display and FYI I'm brand new to magic and this is actually my first magic video so don't expect commercial quality! [wink]



Best,
D





Hi again. Thank you for sharing your video, it's a nice idea.
The turnover I mentioned (and the second one in Vinnys video), would work well here, as you're ending on the table anyway. Don't draw attention to it, just casually turn them over.

To add to the discussion about turning things over/around and motivation etc, here's a little tip which I got from the Switch book which I thought was nice -

A good way to "show" the audience the other side of something, without it looking like a deliberate display, is for YOU to want to see the other side (the side that's facing the audience). In the context of a bill switch (as in the book), this could be so you can see a signature or something, that is on the audience side of the note/bill. This way the audience get to see the other side as you turn it around to see the front.

This idea can also be used in some coin tricks - a Spellbound type routine for example.

I'm not sure if you have patter for your trick, but my advice is to address ALL the coins in your presentation - there should be a reason why three coins are used, and why the two silver coins are there.
There is a common flaw in many of these types of tricks - and that is the "extra" coins. Take your trick for example - the magic only actually happens with one coin (the copper), so why are the two silvers there ? The whole trick could be done without the silver coins being there, so there should be a reason (beyond method) for their presence.

Another example of this would be the common use of Bob Swadlings Double Deception. This is a brilliant coin through handkerchief penetration. The actual penetration looks fantastic, but beyond method, there is absolutely no need for the second coin to be there. Most of the time, only one coin penetrates the handkerchief - so why do we need to use two coins. The second coin seems to just hang around for no reason.
I've always thought the penetration makes a lot more sense when used as the second phase of a three coins through hanky effect. That way there is a reason for the second coin during that part of the routine.

Anyway, I've started rambling now, so I'll shut up.



Jim


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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #25 
One thing you might try is to do the two "fake" turnovers at the same time. Do them first, then the real turnover. Anyone paying close attention can spot two heads showing on the middle coin, but if you do them both, using that same technique it will look better, IMO.

I didn't care for the last turnover, unnatural at best.
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dschmunis

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Reply with quote  #26 
Tom, I don't want to do the flips as prove, the are meant to be done very casually without care but I can see how they could be perceived otherwise by the spectator. Need to play more with the routine and find/test between a casual way of putting them away vs doing a casual display of the real half vs all three.

Jim, one man's rambling is another man's education so please carry on! [wink]

Ray, thank you for the idea of doing the fake turnover on the two c/s coins first. Will continue on practicing the last turnover which I completely fumbled in the video (it's the one from Vinny's video and I think that well executed looks pretty good)

Best,
D

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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #27 
Here' a thought. After the display of three silver, stack them with the fair coin on the bottom. Pick up a coin purse in your RH. As you pick up the pause and move it back towards your left, casually let them get a glimpse of the bottom of the stack. Revolve the LH and thumb off the top C/S coin into the purse. Flash the bottom and repeat, leaving one coin which can be shown very cleanly. Heck, you could even "drop it accidentally" so it is patently obvious it is normal.

If you try this, work on making it seem like just putting them away one at a time, not a move. The trick is over, you're just cleaning up, right? Attitude is so important.

Remember, if you "over prove" the coins as being "normal" what you may accomplish is the opposite of what you intend. Audiences don't believe the coins really changed, so that leaves a handful of options in their mind. Make sure you don't inadvertently lead them to the right one.
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dschmunis

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Reply with quote  #28 
Hi Ray,

Sorry for the delay in replying... been trying to assimilate and process all that's going on around us in the last few days.

I usually carry the coins in my pocket (not a purse) but I've been playing with your idea of using the flushtration move and it's starting to look really good. I think that adding the subtelty of "dropping" the last coin before I put them back in my pocket is brilliant! Will incorporate!

And totally agree with you that the intent is NOT to prove but just a simple unintended handling the coins as a transitory action as I put them away...

Stay safe and stay healthy!

Best,
Diego

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Efendi

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dschmunis
Tom, I don't want to do the flips as prove, the are meant to be done very casually without care but I can see how they could be perceived otherwise by the spectator.


I used Luis Piedrahita's Timoteo Turnover from his book "Coins and Other Fables"

This might be the one you're looking for, it's just a casual move, nothing flashy, and it should fly by the spectators. The moves is especially good using more than 1 coins (because of the flow)

If you can't get his book, if I'm not mistaken, he also teaches this in his GKAPS Lecture (need to check again on this later)

I use the move in a CSB routine I posted here (I'm sure you can spot it on a repeat watch)


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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #30 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Efendi


I used Luis Piedrahita's Timoteo Turnover from his book "Coins and Other Fables"

This might be the one you're looking for, it's just a casual move, nothing flashy, and it should fly by the spectators. The moves is especially good using more than 1 coins (because of the flow)

If you can't get his book, if I'm not mistaken, he also teaches this in his GKAPS Lecture (need to check again on this later)

I use the move in a CSB routine I posted here (I'm sure you can spot it on a repeat watch)




Efendi's demonstration of the move is great.  No way a spectator can follow what is happening due to the motion of both hands and the rhythm.  A great way to apparently show both sides!
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dschmunis

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Reply with quote  #31 
Efendi, thank you for the info. I have the book. will look into it!
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dschmunis

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Reply with quote  #32 
Efendi, thank you for the info. I have the book. will look into it!
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Efendi

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Reply with quote  #33 
In your case, I would do a patter at the end "and I hope you enjoy these 3 little pieces here" (do the turnover) some flamboyant smile, and then pocket everything 😅
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