Sign up Latest Topics Chat
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 1 of 2      1   2   Next
Mind Phantom

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,243
Reply with quote  #1 
Well, I've never really used a top change, what can you recommend to me. I've always used a second deal to get to the 2nd card. What do you like and where can it be found ?

Thanks a bunch !
0
Chi Han

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,047
Reply with quote  #2 
I first learned mine from card college volume 1.  It's the one I use now.  David Williamson had a really cool and unique one taught on Now Look Here by Chad Long, and I think it's on his Ridiculous DVD's.  He also has a download out that I don't own you might be interested in.



I really like the card college one though.  No real get ready, about timing, minimal movement.  Feels like doing a classic force to me in that sense.

0
EVILDAN

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,767
Reply with quote  #3 

Shin Lim
0
Gerald Deutsch

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 314
Reply with quote  #4 
There is much about The Top Change in The Session Room.

I posted this on October 16, 2016:

I do the top change the way Slydini would have done it – had he done the top change – which he didn’t.

What I mean is that I use Slydini’s “timing” principle.

I would do the following:

Posted in full on The Session Room.

0
Tom G

Inner Circle - Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 994
Reply with quote  #5 
Steven Youell has a great demo and explanation of the top change.
0
Gareth

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 873
Reply with quote  #6 
Second Steve Youells approach. An invisible thing to behold.
0
Mike Powers

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,832
Reply with quote  #7 
Third vote for Steve Youell's TC. I love his video where he explains the TC to his spec and then fools her again with it. He doesn't show her the mechanics. He just tells her that he switched the cards. Then he does it again and you can see from her reaction that she had no idea there was a switch (TC).

Mike
0
Steven Youell

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 797
Reply with quote  #8 
Evil Dan:

I know that sometimes you value my opinion. Although you didn't ask for it this time, I somehow feel compelled to give it, because I know you're sort of a perfectionist when it comes to magic. So here goes.

From what I saw, both of the performers in the video you posted use and teach what I consider to be inferior technique. They've got the grip wrong, they advocate exaggerated covering actions and don't understand the mechanics of the exchange. Additionally, their ideas on attention management in regards to the Top Change are way off. For heaven's sake, they both lift their left thumb noticeably during the actual exchange!

I don't know either of the gentlemen so I can't judge anything other than what's on this specific video. And most of the advice and instructions on this video are incorrect, IMO.

If someone wants solid advice on a Top Change, I suggest they start with David Williamson's video from Theory 11 if it's still available. In one of his earlier Magic DVDs, Dave gave excellent advice on covering a Top Change and I also sincerely suggest people study that-- it does away with the idea that you must use sweeping arm movements to cover the Top Change.

And since I'm out on this limb anyway, I'll say this: IMO, anyone who thinks they need sweeping arm movements to cover the Top Change does not understand the move. This is why I also suggest staying away from the description in Card College. But then again, that's only my opinion so take it with a grain of salt.

Don't trust my opinion-- go look at Williamson's work and make the comparison yourself. I think you'll find it well worth the time and effort.

__________________
 
0
ErdnaseVernon

Member
Registered:
Posts: 39
Reply with quote  #9 
This thread is of great use for me as well. Top change is something I've never really studied because I don't use it, but probably something I would use if I did study it.
0
Chi Han

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,047
Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Youell
Evil Dan:

I know that sometimes you value my opinion. Although you didn't ask for it this time, I somehow feel compelled to give it, because I know you're sort of a perfectionist when it comes to magic. So here goes.

From what I saw, both of the performers in the video you posted use and teach what I consider to be inferior technique. They've got the grip wrong, they advocate exaggerated covering actions and don't understand the mechanics of the exchange. Additionally, their ideas on attention management in regards to the Top Change are way off. For heaven's sake, they both lift their left thumb noticeably during the actual exchange!

I don't know either of the gentlemen so I can't judge anything other than what's on this specific video. And most of the advice and instructions on this video are incorrect, IMO.

If someone wants solid advice on a Top Change, I suggest they start with David Williamson's video from Theory 11 if it's still available. In one of his earlier Magic DVDs, Dave gave excellent advice on covering a Top Change and I also sincerely suggest people study that-- it does away with the idea that you must use sweeping arm movements to cover the Top Change.

And since I'm out on this limb anyway, I'll say this: IMO, anyone who thinks they need sweeping arm movements to cover the Top Change does not understand the move. This is why I also suggest staying away from the description in Card College. But then again, that's only my opinion so take it with a grain of salt.

Don't trust my opinion-- go look at Williamson's work and make the comparison yourself. I think you'll find it well worth the time and effort.


The Card College description doesn't say to use a sweeping arm motion to cover the move.  At least not in my reading of it.
0
Gareth

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 873
Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Youell
Evil Dan:

If someone wants solid advice on a Top Change, I suggest they start with David Williamson's video from Theory 11 if it's still available. In one of his earlier Magic DVDs, Dave gave excellent advice on covering a Top Change and I also sincerely suggest people study that-- it does away with the idea that you must use sweeping arm movements to cover the Top Change.

And since I'm out on this limb anyway, I'll say this: IMO, anyone who thinks they need sweeping arm movements to cover the Top Change does not understand the move. This is why I also suggest staying away from the description in Card College. But then again, that's only my opinion so take it with a grain of salt.

Don't trust my opinion-- go look at Williamson's work and make the comparison yourself. I think you'll find it well worth the time and effort.


David Williamson's Top Change instruction is found here;

https://www.artofmagic.com/products/topchange

on Theory 11's sister site artofmagic.com

Thanks Steve.

Doc Eason performs it very well in my opinion on his bar magic series.

Gareth

0
EVILDAN

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,767
Reply with quote  #12 
Steven Youell, I like your method.
I posted the Shin Lim because he just posted it the other day and I just happened to watch it and this thread came up.
The perfect storm.

I don't perform a top change. After watching your demo, and I MUST HAVE seen it before, I think I'm going to practice it and then test it out in the real world. I think maybe I didn't see the need for it before. But now, I can see possibilities. So it's something worth pursuing. And it will definitely be the hands not moving technique as opposed to the sweeping tells of the other methods.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
0
Anthony Vinson

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member - Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 2,355
Reply with quote  #13 
Simon Lovell offers some keen insights into the Top Change in his book Simon Says. Like many of you I have doggedly pursued a dependable, invisible, silent Top Change, but with little luck. After reading Simon's approach and applying it, both physically and psychologically, I am making more progress than ever.

Here's a bit of what Simon has to say, lifted directly from his book. I hope there's no problem posting this here under Fair Use - Obviously I do not think there is, but Mods may disagree and I shall stand by their decision. At any rate, I highly recommend the book - Lots of great material, true, but Simon's thoughts are pure gold worth the consideration of any closeup magician. I think they guy is too often overlooked. Enough of me, here's Simon:

Think of it more as “change the top card of
the deck for the one in your hand when nobody is looking”
and you’ll see my thinking. The actual mechanics of the move
are as follows. With your left thumb, push over the top card
of the deck as in Figure Five. The right hand, in one continuous
motion, dumps its card on top of the deck and grasps the side-jogged card.
The hands then move apart,

with the right hand slightly leading and the left hand turning
down as in Figure Seven. In the above instance, the
change is done under the huge misdirection of calling your
helper a maniac. Tiny points on the Top Change include: never
look at your hands when doing the change; always look the
spectator directly in the eyes; forget about fancy Top Changes
(this is a workhorse Top Change); make sure that you have
patter or motion misdirection (I often take a slight step back).

Once more, a Top Change can only be learned “under
the cosh” (i.e. under actual working conditions). Every time
you finish an effect, Top Change the card in your hand
for the top one of the deck. If they catch you, it doesn’t
matter. You dump the card you are holding on top of the
deck and go into a shuffle as if you were just starting to
mix up the cards. But every time you get caught, you’ll be
learning more and more about the critical timing that this
move needs. The physical actions can be done by a child;
doing the move without being seen requires a high degree
of psychological practice that can only come after
spending time trying it on real people. The more you do
it, the better you’ll get!

0
Steven Youell

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 797
Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Vinson
Simon Lovell offers some keen insights into the Top Change in his book Simon Says.

Well I'm already vested in this thread so I'll just double down-- Simon is dead wrong on several several points here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Vinson
The actual mechanics of the move are as follows. With your left thumb, push over the top card of the deck as in Figure Five. The right hand, in one continuous motion, dumps its card on top of the deck and grasps the side-jogged card. The hands then move apart, with the right hand slightly leading and the left hand turning down as in Figure Seven.

Those are not the mechanics. He's reduced a surgical procedure to "cut the patient open and take out the organ you wish to remove. In short, he's simplified it to the point of being useless. Or simplifying palming by saying "hide the card in your hand". 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Vinson
Tiny points on the Top Change include: never look at your hands when doing the change; always look the spectator directly in the eyes...make sure that you have patter or motion misdirection (I often take a slight step back).


Nope! You can look at your hands, it just depends on when, why and how. You don't always have to look your spectator in the eye and you don't always need "patter or motion misdirection".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Vinson
  Once more, a Top Change can only be learned “under the cosh” (i.e. under actual working conditions).

This is not true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Vinson
  Every time you finish an effect, Top Change the card in your hand for the top one of the deck. If they catch you, it doesn’t matter. You dump the card you are holding on top of the deck and go into a shuffle as if you were just starting to mix up the cards.

Horrible advice that will end up hurting you more than helping you in terms of the Top Change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Vinson
 But every time you get caught, you’ll be learning more and more about the critical timing that this move needs.

No, you won't. You'll learn what it is to get caught and expose a move. None of this is necessary to learn the timing required for a Top Change. There are much better ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Vinson
 The physical actions can be done by a child...

Absolutely 100% false. Not even close.

Is he describing some sort of pseudo Top Change in the context of an effect? Cause that's the only way I see this description having merit.

I've spent decades studying the Top Change. As most of you can tell now, I have definite opinions. I also love the move and it bothers me a lot to see people do it incorrectly. Rather than bore everyone to death with my hard headed opinions, I'll just leave this thread alone now as I think I'm becoming annoying.


__________________
 
0
Anthony Vinson

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member - Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 2,355
Reply with quote  #15 
Steven Youell wrote: I've spent decades studying the Top Change. As most of you can tell now, I have definite opinions. I also love the move and it bothers me a lot to see people do it incorrectly. Rather than bore everyone to death with my hard headed opinions, I'll just leave this thread alone now as I think I'm becoming annoying.

I think that's exactly the reason that your insights are critical. This is a discussion, and I am happy to concede to the knowledge and experience of others in the pursuit of learning and growing.

Simon's writing on the subject changed the way I viewed the Top Change. I came to see it less as an insurmountable and more as obtainable. Like many here, I would dearly love to slip the Top Change into my quiver. And also like many here I have been unsuccessful in doing so despite study and practice. Personal limitation? Nah, just haven't found the right combination of teacher and technique that works best for me. 

You will note that I never heralded Simon's advice as the be all end all. Rather I wrote that it had helped me make significant progress. I have also paid attention to what you have written in previous threads, and have watched you video several times to absorb the nuances of the move. Every little bit of pertinent, experienced information helps. I, for one, appreciate your points of view. So please don't "leave it alone" unless your personally bored with it. If that's the case I understand.

My .02 cents.
0
JustChico

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 95
Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Youell
Evil Dan:

From what I saw, both of the performers in the video you posted use and teach what I consider to be inferior technique. They've got the grip wrong, they advocate exaggerated covering actions and don't understand the mechanics of the exchange. Additionally, their ideas on attention management in regards to the Top Change are way off. For heaven's sake, they both lift their left thumb noticeably during the actual exchange!


I have avoided card magic up to this point simply because everything looked difficult and it seemed like everybody who could write a book wrote one about card magic. That being said, as someone just starting out with cards (for all intents and purposes), the grip they used when showing the "inferiority" of the DL looked horrible. Perhaps it was an exaggeration for effect? I have a copy of Aaron Fisher's Pathways to Mastery as well as e-books of Royal Road and Card College (I think). Anyway, since I'm more of a video guy, I figured I would start with Pathways, then go into one of the e-books. I also have Mark Wilson's Complete Course which I know has some card stuff in it, but not sure how "complete" it is. And, of course, I have Harry's The Magic Book, too. I need to go back and take a look at some of the self-workers in that one, for sure.

Now, as to what any of this has to do with the quote:

1) I would be interested to hear opinions on my "plan of attack" for learning card magic.
2) Is a DL really as much more difficult/involved as the guys in this video make it out to be?
0
magicfish

Administrator
Registered:
Posts: 1,372
Reply with quote  #17 
I learned the top change from Williamson's Wonders- an excellent book on closeup. I also learned it from Sleight of Dave- the companion tape.
It is probably the best I've seen. Not just for the technique but for the theory behind the move.
Ive recently discovered some interesting, and very good work on the top change in Giobbi's Stand-Up Card Magic.

0
Anthony Vinson

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member - Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 2,355
Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by magicfish
Ive recently discovered some interesting, and very good work on the top change in Giobbi's Stand-Up Card Magic.


You are correct, sir! Giobbi's descriptions in Stand-Up Card Magic are interesting, especially the switch from Biddle Grip...
0
luigimar

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member - Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 1,135
Reply with quote  #19 
You may have forgotten about this but Steven Youell has had some lectures on TMF and in one of them he discusses in detail the top change. If you had forgotten about it you can go back and watch the lecture. He got most of us with his top change. Unfortunately I don't remember the date but it is definitely here, ready for those who attended the lecture...
__________________
Luigimar
Magic is Within...
0
luigimar

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member - Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 1,135
Reply with quote  #20 
You may have forgotten about this but Steven Youell has had some lectures on TMF and in one of them he discusses in detail the top change. If you had forgotten about it you can go back and watch the lecture. He got most of us with his top change. Unfortunately I don't remember the date but it is definitely here, ready for those who attended the lecture...
__________________
Luigimar
Magic is Within...
0
Mind Phantom

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,243
Reply with quote  #21 
Thanks a lot you guys, you guys are great!!!
0
KenTheriot

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,137
Reply with quote  #22 
Since I'm trying now to perfect my top change - and I know it needs serious work, I found this thread and bought the David Williamson video from Art of Magic. But I totally don't understand how to move the top card as he describes. He says several times to do it "with the 2nd finger." But I'm not seeing how this is being done, and honestly i'm not sure what "the 2nd finger" is :-P. Is he talking about the index finger or the middle finger? And how in the world is he managing to move and pivot the top card with the 2nd finger? Am I missing something really basic here?

Thoughts?
0
Tom G

Inner Circle - Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 994
Reply with quote  #23 
I'd look into Steven Youell's work on the top change.  As luigimar said, he covered it in one of his lectures.  At one point he sold just the tutorial on the top change and that's what I have. 
0
Bmat

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 325
Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTheriot
Since I'm trying now to perfect my top change - and I know it needs serious work, I found this thread and bought the David Williamson video from Art of Magic. But I totally don't understand how to move the top card as he describes. He says several times to do it "with the 2nd finger." But I'm not seeing how this is being done, and honestly i'm not sure what "the 2nd finger" is :-P. Is he talking about the index finger or the middle finger? And how in the world is he managing to move and pivot the top card with the 2nd finger? Am I missing something really basic here?

Thoughts?


If you can find it.  Jay Sankey's top change.  I'm pretty sure it is not his, and I learned it from him live so I don't know if he has it out anywhere.  Top change was one of those things I've always stayed away from, then when Jay taught it at a lecture...I never looked back, thing,  much easier than a double lift.

__________________
bmat10@wordpress.com
0
Steven Youell

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 797
Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmat
I never looked back, thing,  much easier than a double lift.

Could you please clarify? Are you saying you're using a Top Change to change a card instead of the double lift? Or are you saying you've substituted the Top Change for all functions of the Double Lift?

__________________
 
0
Stevie Ray Christian

Avatar / Picture

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 449
Reply with quote  #26 
The top-change is an excellent example of a bold move made invisible by the circumstance under which it is executed. Steven Youell proves this repeatedly in his TC video.

Back in the day--before the day--I learned the top-change from Williamson's Wonders. 

I worked on it until it was smooth and silent. Then, I added the TC between the 2nd and third revelations of my Ambitious/51 cards to pocket routine. I timed the "shrug" with a sure-fire laugh line and pulled it off hundreds of times while table-hopping.

Simon Lovell's point, ".. a Top Change can only be learned “under the cosh” (i.e. under actual working conditions)" is nearly accurate. I learned the TC at home, found a way to time it with words and a subtle gesture--the shrug. Only then, did I use it in front of laymen. By incorporating the move into a routine, I was obligated to use it--consistently. And, like any well-practiced sleight, my execution and confidence improved with each performance.

0
Steven Youell

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 797
Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie Ray Christian
Simon Lovell's point, ".. a Top Change can only be learned “under the cosh” (i.e. under actual working conditions)" is nearly accurate.

I disagree. Strongly.

__________________
 
0
Bmat

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 325
Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Youell

Could you please clarify? Are you saying you're using a Top Change to change a card instead of the double lift? Or are you saying you've substituted the Top Change for all functions of the Double Lift?


I use the double lift more than any other move. But I ow mix it up a little, I’ll use a double in one segment of ambitious card and then use the top change in another. I used to use a double for finger on card. Now I use a top change. Will a top change replace a double lift in all cases? I don’t think so.

But, for me anyway, a top change is easier than a double lift. Just technically easier to execute.

__________________
bmat10@wordpress.com
0
Harry Lorayne

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 2,191
Reply with quote  #29 
    I always used my Ultra move instead.
0
Gareth

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 873
Reply with quote  #30 
Have posted this elsewhere but worth studying. In my humble student opinion masterful in so many ways.

Gareth

PS currently waiting for David’s Ridiculous DVD set to arrive, his thoughts on the top change are included in that. Will comment in session room when I’ve practiced
0
KenTheriot

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,137
Reply with quote  #31 
Still confused about the Williamson action of the left hand. Can anyone explain this to me? He says the move is done with the 2nd finger. And which finger is he talking about when he says "2nd finger?" In the video, I don't see the index or middle finger doing anything at all. Confused.
0
Gareth

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 873
Reply with quote  #32 
I can’t help you with the mechanics or clarification Ken but I’m sure others here will. When his Ridiculous DVDs arrive I’ll check his top change stuff and get back to you but that’ll prob take at least a week.

I think it is a point worth making that the nomenclature we use isn’t universal. I personally don’t like the terms first and second finger etc in magic books. It isn’t intuitive to me as much as thumb, index, middle, ring and little finger/pinkie.

I count the thumb as a finger, most of us each have ten fingers and ten toes making the most logical terminology the pinkie is the fifth finger and the thumb the first. The index finger, though is often referred to as the first finger.

But I understand this isn’t universal either. Just thoughts, I’m not asking for the library of magic to be re-written.

Apology for the tangent.

Gareth
0
Stevie Ray Christian

Avatar / Picture

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 449
Reply with quote  #33 
Originally Posted by Stevie Ray Christian
Simon Lovell's point, ".. a Top Change can only be learned “under the cosh” (i.e. under actual working conditions)" is nearly accurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Youell

I disagree. Strongly.


Steven, I do believe you and I agree... mildly.

I did go on to say: "I learned the TC at home, found a way to time it with words and a subtle gesture--the shrug. Only then, did I use it in front of laymen. By incorporating the move into a routine, I was obligated to use it--consistently. And, like any well-practiced sleight, my execution and confidence improved with each performance."

I would say ANY magic teacher suggesting ANY sleight be "learned" in front of a audience is imparting bad advice.

I will say this, the Top-Change is one of those moves that gives the student pause. This is the main reason your video on the subject is so apt. You repeatedly demonstrate just how invisible this seemingly bold move can be.

As with any sleight, executing during performance,under the watchful gaze of a live audience and experiencing the beautiful invisibility of the action for the first few times is wildly encouraging. I think that's what Mr. Lovell may have intended to say... Still, may God have mercy, not only on those performers who took his advice to heart--but also to their audiences.
0
arthur stead

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 645
Reply with quote  #34 

Due to this thread and Steven Youell's videos on another revenant thread, I was inspired to order his Card Sleight Tutorials DVD.  Received it today and immediately watched his Top Change instructions.  

 All I can say is: Buy this!  I can already tell that following his advice is going to help me learn and perfect this great sleight.  

 This DVD also covers some other wonderfully useful sleights, including the Cardini Multiple Shift, Ron Bauer’s In Frame Control, The Flicker Glimpse, Bauer’s Two Card Turnover Technique, The Gravity Pop Out Move, Malo’s Flexible Switchout, Vernon’s Shuttle Cut Control, and more.  All described patiently, with great camera angles, and with Steven sharing his intelligent and thoughtful insights behind every detail.  

 Fabulous!


__________________
http://www.arthurstead.com
0
Steven Youell

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 797
Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arthur stead
All I can say is: Buy this!  I can already tell that following his advice is going to help me learn and perfect this great sleight.

Thanks for the kind words, Arthur. I no longer sell these, but Andru Luvisi bought the rights and sells them at his site. I do enjoy hearing that people find them useful though. Click on my signature line and you'll be directed to Andru's site!

Quote:
Originally Posted by arthur stead
All described patiently, with great camera angles...

Those angles are hard to get, too! I don't use a studio and I am a one man operation. Several times I had to hold a camera under my chin to get the right shot. The advantage was that since I wasn't paying for studio time I could take my time and make sure the shot was just the way I needed it to be. One time it took me an entire day to get a single shot just right.

Thanks again for the kind words!

__________________
 
0
Steven Youell

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 797
Reply with quote  #36 
This is what the exchange should look like.

Notice that the left thumb is not lifted up at all.
Neither is there any "pinching" movement of the fingers of the right hand.


Please note that not all of these exchanges are perfect. Why? I've always advocated that
when practicing the TC one should not do several Top Changes in a row. The reason is
that the cards shift positions in the hand when you do that and that means the proper
grip is compromised. In this video, that means that the exchanged card sometimes
does not always end up perfectly aligned with the deck. But that would not be a problem
when doing one Top Change.




__________________
 
0
Steven Youell

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 797
Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth
Have posted this elsewhere but worth studying. In my humble student opinion masterful in so many ways.

This may not be the best example of Dave's Technique. Here's why:

Because of the situation, Dave's hands are in a very limited space. This makes the move look crowded and Dave's normally incredible technique is compromised a bit. This would not matter if he was just doing a trick for one person.  This video could lead people to believe that you can only fool one spectator with the change. That is not the case. I know for a fact that if Dave was working for several people, not one of them would detect the change because he'd engineer the change so the group would be misdirected.

This is a situation in which the Top Change is made to fool ONE PERSON! Now there's nothing wrong with that but everyone around him will see the change. The misdirection is specific to ONE PERSON. This is not a function of bad technique, it's a function of design. But as I already said, the video could mislead people. So this may not be the best example of Dave's normally flawless technique.

__________________
 
0
Amazer

Avatar / Picture

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 179
Reply with quote  #38 
Stevie Ray said,

Quote:
"I learned the TC at home, found a way to time it with words and a subtle gesture--the shrug. Only then, did I use it in front of laymen. By incorporating the move into a routine, I was obligated to use it--consistently. And, like any well-practiced sleight, my execution and confidence improved with each performance."


I very much love the shrug idea.  I think that is far better than relying on looking up at the spectator during the move.  In fact, I really don't like or use looking at them as a cover, because honestly, many people are way too smart about this stuff today.  If they realize they took their eyes off of the deck for a moment, they'll suspect you took that opportunity to do a switch.  The shrug is a natural movement that doesn't telegraph what you are doing in reality.

My TC is done exactly as Steven Youell is demonstrating in the video two posts prior to this.  Unfortunately, I don't remember where I learned it, so not sure if it's the "classic" version, or a particular author's teaching on it.  Done in the context of an effect, a spectator burning your hands would see that the card touched the deck, but they wouldn't see the switch.  The burning is avoided by doing it in the offbeat, by making a small jesture, or as I'll now be trying, the aforementioned shrug combined with an offbeat comment - if you don't mind the borrow, Stevie Ray!


__________________
- Ken

0
KenTheriot

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,137
Reply with quote  #39 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Youell
This is what the exchange should look like.



Thanks for that Steven!! I see that it's basically the same as David Williamson's now. But you have even less thumb movement on the left hand.

Quick question - It seems to be a sort of lateral movement of the hands - left hand moving a bit right and the right hand moving a bit left until the hands come together. Can you do this from back to front/front to back as well? This would be similar to how Giobbi taught it in CC, with the top card in jogged rather than side jogged.

I was recently at a Magic LIVE lecture with Magic Ballay and he did the top change where the right hand was sort of forward and the left hand with the deck was behind. And he said the best way was to move the left hand forward TO the right hand holding the single card. Either way, the action seemed to me to be 90 degrees from what you and David Williamson do.

Am I interpreting this wrong?
0
arthur stead

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 645
Reply with quote  #40 

Ken, when I still lived in NYC, I hung out at Tannen’s with Magick Ballay several times a week.  And I got to know him well enough to realize that he developed his own versions of many standard sleights and effects.  For example, his Invisible Bill Switch is completely original and different from the “conventional” method.  So I wouldn’t be surprised if his Top Change technique is also unusual and unique to him.


__________________
http://www.arthurstead.com
0
KenTheriot

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,137
Reply with quote  #41 
Thanks Arthur.
0
KenTheriot

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,137
Reply with quote  #42 
I just found Steven's video on Lybrary.com. It's really helpful as it has him teaching the mechanics start-to-finish.
0
Steven Youell

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 797
Reply with quote  #43 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTheriot
I just found Steven's video on Lybrary.com. It's really helpful as it has him teaching the mechanics start-to-finish.

I'm not sure if that's the one Andru sells-- and I consider that my best tutorial on the TC. Perhaps you should send Andru an email and ask?

__________________
 
0
Stevie Ray Christian

Avatar / Picture

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 449
Reply with quote  #44 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazer
Stevie Ray said,

I very much love the shrug idea.  I think that is far better than relying on looking up at the spectator during the move... The shrug is a natural movement that doesn't telegraph what you are doing in reality.

...The burning is avoided by doing it in the offbeat, by making a small gesture, or as I'll now be trying, the aforementioned shrug combined with an offbeat comment - if you don't mind the borrow, Stevie Ray!



Thanks Amazer! I'm almost certain I picked up the shrug from David Williamson.

In the late '90s, I began working the dining rooms in a couple of Dave & Buster's in Orange County.

This was my first consistent professional gig. Weekend after weekend, I purposely incorporated moves I wanted to improve.

My mentor, Gregory Wilson, had killed me with his version of David's 51 Cards to Pocket. It is a great multi-phased thriller with a ton of engagement and a stunning finish.

Here is how I integrated the top-change...

After two "ambitious" revelations, I would milk for applause:

(Displaying the signed card a shoulder's width from the pack and nodding 'yes')

"Did you all like that?"

(Waiting for the reaction and surveying the crowd for applause or positive acknowledgement)

"Good!... Because it's all I've got!"

(With the laugh, I would shrug, nod 'No', mug and TC in the action of bringing the hands together to point at myself, right around the solar plexus)

It worked like a charm the very first time and has never failed me through hundreds of outings.

The timing, the line, the laugh, the shrug and the semi-apologetic/self-depricating scenario covered what I'm sure was sketchy technique.

All credit to Misters Wilson and Williamson. Those guys exploit the off-beat and the well-timed laugh line as masterfully as any worker I've ever seen.

This bit requires eye contact, It comes at a time in the routine where spectators who've promised themselves they will not look away... look away. My belief is, the cover is so natural and the reference to the previous revelations is so overt... they don't realize they've broken their gaze.

I would agree that eye contact alone will not mask a bold sleight. It must be motivated and natural... and that's precisely the moment when one can get away with murder.

0
KenTheriot

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,137
Reply with quote  #45 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Youell

I'm not sure if that's the one Andru sells-- and I consider that my best tutorial on the TC. Perhaps you should send Andru an email and ask?


Just did that, Steven.

BTW, based on everything I've seen from you on this so far (though not sure if I've seen the one on the "Card Sleights" Tutorial from Andru, since I don't have that DVD), I wanted to know if I at least have the BASIC mechanics down before I practice it a zillion times.

Here is a quick video I did of me trying it very slowly. Does it look like I have the main elements in place at least? 



Anything horrific jump out?

Thanks!
0
luvisi

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 110
Reply with quote  #46 
Based on my conversation with Ken, I believe they are different.  The one at https://www.lybrary.com/top-change-p-93995.html appears to be from 2003 and is about 5 minutes long.  The one on http://www.practicenotincluded.com/ is from 2009 and is about 16 minutes long.

I've also got DVD's with Steven's work on the pass and on palming (also different from the palming work at https://www.lybrary.com/) up on http://www.practicenotincluded.com/ as well as two sets of lecture notes, each the size of a small book.

https://www.lybrary.com/steven-youell-teaches-advanced-card-techniques-p-70.html combines two DVDs that Steven put out many years ago and then sold to Lybrary. They are different from the DVDs that I'm selling.

As a die hard Steven Youell fan, I naturally recommend all of it.

Andru
0
Harry Lorayne

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 2,191
Reply with quote  #47 
       In case you didn't see it way up above - you might even look up my The Ultra Move.
0
Steven Youell

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 797
Reply with quote  #48 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTheriot
Here is a quick video I did of me trying it very slowly. Does it look like I have the main elements in place at least?

You've got a Knuckle Pop. When your left thumb draws the card in, the first knuckle bends a lot. There are several factors to consider when trying to minimize this. Before the change, stretch your left thumb out fully. Also place the card further under the left thumb so the "drawing back" is minimized. Try those two and see if the Knuckle Pop is reduced.

Also, try and get rid of the pinching movement of the right thumb and forefinger. This can be done by experimenting with the two planes-- the card and the top of the deck. By using the friction between your right forefinger and the bottom of the card and varying the difference between those two planes you can probably get it down to where it's almost noticeable. 

I believe you have the mechanics down, this is just fine tuning. When you can do this at speed, we'll talk about how to use it. But I want to emphasize that you are doing really well here.

Sorry this is late-- I was looking for a PM and I missed that you posted it here!

Let me know if (and how much) this helps, OK? Send another video when you think you've addressed these things. You're doing excellent!

__________________
 
0
KenTheriot

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,137
Reply with quote  #49 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Lorayne
       In case you didn't see it way up above - you might even look up my The Ultra Move.


Harry - I've been practicing the Ultra Move for a few years. I still don't have it down such that it is reliable. But even if I did, the trick I'm trying to improve the TC for would he hard to do the Ultra Move in. I do like it though and will continue to work on it.
0
KenTheriot

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,137
Reply with quote  #50 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Youell

You've got a Knuckle Pop. When your left thumb draws the card in, the first knuckle bends a lot. There are several factors to consider when trying to minimize this. Before the change, stretch your left thumb out fully. Also place the card further under the left thumb so the "drawing back" is minimized. Try those two and see if the Knuckle Pop is reduced.

Also, try and get rid of the pinching movement of the right thumb and forefinger. This can be done by experimenting with the two planes-- the card and the top of the deck. By using the friction between your right forefinger and the bottom of the card and varying the difference between those two planes you can probably get it down to where it's almost noticeable. 

I believe you have the mechanics down, this is just fine tuning. When you can do this at speed, we'll talk about how to use it. But I want to emphasize that you are doing really well here.

Sorry this is late-- I was looking for a PM and I missed that you posted it here!

Let me know if (and how much) this helps, OK? Send another video when you think you've addressed these things. You're doing excellent!


Thanks Steven! I was actually surprised to see the movement of my right thumb/forefinger, since I THOUGHT I wasn't moving them :-). I saw that right after I put up the video and have been working at getting rid of any movement there. I didn't know the knuckle pop in the left thumb was too much, so I'll try to get that reduced. Thanks so much!!
0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.