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JenniferG

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Reply with quote  #1 
Have any of you done this?

I have Mnemonica down very well.  Wondering if it is possible to learn another stack, e.g. Redford, and be able to use either at any given moment.   Or is it too confusing?

I'd like to have my own stack no one knows.  So when I demonstrate new tricks using a memdeck, magicians don't know right off it's a stack.  Mnemonica is a giveaway since it is so popular of a stack. 
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Paco Nagata

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Reply with quote  #2 
Yes.
But not very succefully.
My mem-deck has always been Mnemonica.
But I tried to memorised my own too.
My stack was nothing but the most named card by my spectators ranking. So, the top one was the As of Space, the second one was the Queen of Heart and so on...
It took me a few years to develop that ranking but I didn't do it to create a mem-deck, but just to have such an useful ranking for future card effects.
So, when the book Mnemonica fell into my hands I thought I could memorised as well a stack based on the most named cards order. However I noticed that I usually confused both stacks, so I forgot about memorising both stacks, and focused on Mnemonica.

It depends on if you can memorise two stacks without confusing them.
Just try it.
Personally I wasn't good at it.

I think there is no drawbacks about memorising two stacks provide that you don't confuse them when performing.

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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #3 
Rudy can comment as he learned Redford after he was proficient with Mnemonica. He said learning the additional stack was pretty quick.

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about fooling magicians.
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JenniferG

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Reply with quote  #4 

I started on the Redford stack today.  I memorized the first 13 cards in like 30 mins with flash cards I made using the backs of playing cards.   I write the number of the card on the back in the 2 pip locations, like in the following photo:

IMG_5725.jpg 

I then just shuffle them up and put them in order from lowest to highest.. shuffle then put in order from highest to lowest.. then shuffle and use as flash cards to guess either the card value or the number depending on which way I am looking at it.   It's really quick.

So I am finding it's not hard to memorize an additional stack, since I already know mnemonica really well -- I don't think mnemonica stack is something I will forget.  I drill myself now.  I hear a number and I state both card values in both stacks starting with mneumonica.   I have alexa give me a random number between 1 and 13 (only have 13 redford memorized so far) and for example say it is 10:  I then say 2 of spades, ace of spades.    I count from 1 to 13 in pairs.. (4 of clubs, queen of hearts), (2 of hearts, 2 of spades) .. (queen of clubs, 2 of diamonds).   When I hear a card value, I state the number in (mnemonica, redford) pairs as well.. e.g. say it is "10 of hearts" I then say (38, 7).

I am thinking I can know both and use either on a whim (much like learning and speaking multiple languages?).. we'll see once I memorize all 52 Redford cards. 

I guess I better buy the "Temporarily Out of Order" book by Patrick Redford right?  And "Mnemonica" book by Tamariz.  Only memdeck work I've done so far is from Asi Wind's Repertoire book, along with a trick I created as substitute for invisible deck.

Can I do all the tricks in Mnemonica with Redford Stack? 


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Bulla

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Reply with quote  #5 
I have no experience with learning stacks but I like the way that Woody Aragon explained it. He said it's like a language. Even tho it's difficult for him to speak in English, once he knows that he's in English it's very strange for him to say a Spanish word. It's like a click in your brain where you know what language you're supposed to be speaking in. He said learning two stacks is something like that. If he's using Mnemonica he won't suddenly start thinking in a different stack.
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JenniferG

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Reply with quote  #6 
Thanks Bulla for that reply.  Yeah that's what I am thinking.  I haven't had a single problem yet.  I can count to thirteen quickly in redford then count in mnemonica just as fast as ever.
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Paco Nagata

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JenniferG
Can I do all the tricks in Mnemonica with Redford Stack? 

Not all since there are Mnemonica specific tricks, but you can do any stack independent tricks in Mnemonica book using any stack, of course. In Tamariz Mnemonica book there are tons of great stack independent tricks, so the book is a gem even for any stack order.

Edit to correct "in a gem" for "is a gem"

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JenniferG

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Reply with quote  #8 
Redford stack allows you to go back to new deck order easily right?  Then I could go to Mnemonica with a few faros from that.  Can one go from mnemonica back to new deck order easily?  I guess that's the only way to switch between the two is to go back to new deck order first?
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JenniferG

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Reply with quote  #9 
If I can easily know both stacks, I'll go for a third.. I definitely want a secret stack no one knows but myself -- probably just a few overhand shuffles and faros away from either Redford or Mnemonica, with ability to get back to either.

With flash cards I am finding it very easy to brute force learn it.  No memory palace / techniques for me.
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Paco Nagata

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Reply with quote  #10 
I don't know Redford stack, but I've heard that you can go back to NDO easierly than with Mnemonica. Anyway, because of that you would be able to get both stack from NDO. If you can memorise two decks, it would be a very powerful tool for card magic.
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JenniferG

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Reply with quote  #11 
How would it be powerful to know two stacks versus say just Redford?   Redford can do more than Mnemonica right?  I mean is there really a reason to learn Mnemonica in the first place?  I'll never forget it .. but just wondering.
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Paco Nagata

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Reply with quote  #12 
It's a matter of choosing one.
I chose Mnemonica long time ago, so I'm very used to perform with that stack.
Because I don't need (and can't really) memorise two decks since I confuse both, I just keep being a "Mnemonician."

You can:

1- Memorise Redford Stack and enjoy as well the stack independent tricks in Tamariz book.
2- Memorise both decks (if you have no problem) and enjoy as well the specific tricks of both decks.

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Matt G

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Reply with quote  #13 
Nah there's no super easy way to go Redford to NDO (at least without a lot of running and dealing). One of its main strengths however is ease to and from Stebbins. There is an awesome routine called Temporarily Out of Order (and yes, imo you should probably buy the book) which gets you back into NDO from Redford. In my most humble opinion the coolest part of the purchase is the inclusion into the Facebook group, where people share ideas/techniques they have with the stack. He also has a new book called Sleightly Out of Order coming out soon with ideas from the same stack.

There are a few built in spelling and poker routines which kill, but I'm sure it's the same with Mnemonica. I like it because I can crack a deck open, get into Stebbins, do some quick effects, and then get into Redford to do a memdeck trick or two, then perform Temporarily Out of Order which honestly melts the people I've done it for's minds, and end up right back in NDO.

Mike Powers wrote the foreword for Temporarily Out of Order so he may be able to shine some additional light with the years of experience he has.
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John Cowne

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Reply with quote  #14 
Hey Jennifer,
I’d like to say that your enthusiasm to stretch yourself In some of the skills that take concentration (and dexterity/muscle memory, as shown in your videos) are a great encouragement to me, and I’m sure to everyone else at TMF. My opinion is, introduce and exercise new skills while you can... it will never get easier than the present to add to your repertoire. Keep strengthening those synapses .. you won’t regret it. It sounds like you’re a fast learner, so I think this principle is particularly relevant for you: it never hurts to have another way of doing any particular effect.
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JenniferG

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Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Cowne
Hey Jennifer,
I’d like to say that your enthusiasm to stretch yourself In some of the skills that take concentration (and dexterity/muscle memory, as shown in your videos) are a great encouragement to me, and I’m sure to everyone else at TMF. My opinion is, introduce and exercise new skills while you can... it will never get easier than the present to add to your repertoire. Keep strengthening those synapses .. you won’t regret it. It sounds like you’re a fast learner, so I think this principle is particularly relevant for you: it never hurts to have another way of doing any particular effect.


Thanks John.  But I am not really that fast of a learner.. you should see my trying to start learning the classic pass and the pressure fan, LMAO.  Memorizing mnemonica took me like a week with the flash cards.  I guess after doing that, it's making the Redford easier to memorize.
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Harry Lorayne

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Reply with quote  #16 
   Amazing!
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JenniferG

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Reply with quote  #17 
Lol.. I detect sarcasm from the memory master 😋
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Harry Lorayne

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Reply with quote  #18 
       No - whenever I read something/anything about memorizing a deck in anything over - all right - let's say over a couple of hours (once you know my techniques/systemsm/methods) - my reaction is not sarcasm, it's - AMAZING!   (Like amazed wondering "Where have these people been over the decades that I've taught this stuff?"   Just amazing.  
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Harry Lorayne

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Reply with quote  #19 

      Amazement --- and a bit of sadness.
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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JenniferG


Thanks John.  But I am not really that fast of a learner.. you should see my trying to start learning the classic pass and the pressure fan, LMAO..


Jen,

I have been working on the classic pass since forever, I still flash when I do it. The pressure fan I learned in about six months.
 
I learned the pressure fan in a home study course from the Chavez College Of Magic. That was back in my stage magic days.

Reading Harry's posts over time he has posted that learning the classic pass is unnecessary, well i'll let him tell you..

MP-

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Mbreggar

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Reply with quote  #21 

Quick comment about using Harry’s system(s) for memorizing a full deck stack...

first off, even the smallest amount of research will show you that every system out there for doing this task in some way has taken pieces from Harry‘s method (in some cases, it’s lifted and ripped off outright...with no credit yet).

if you take the time to learn the system first (and adopt some of the key words to things more meaningful to you), you’ll find you can memorize ANY stack after about an hour and a half to two hours’ study.

Think about that... spend a couple of hours to learn the “master system” (my name for it) and 90 minutes for any stack!

So why is it people still question it’s ease and effectiveness? 
My opinion is it is not seen as “the latest thing.” It’s an insane rationale, but it is what it is. And the folks selling ”their” systems spend more time speaking about how wonderful their systems are, rather than carefully teach the “whys” of how it works (although some do credit Harry). Geoff Williams has a couple of great books teaching how to memorize the Tamariz and Aronson stacks. He quickly points out his system is really Harry’s system with some very minor changes and a set of keywords he found very helpful for himself. He then says that once you learn it, it can be applied to any memorized stack. Patrick Redford and Woody Aragon also point to Harry’s influence, though their books are not about HOW to memorize their stacks, rather the magic that can be performed with their stacks. 

Personally, I talked myself into thinking how difficult memorizing a stack would be; so I gravitated towards stacks that were mathematically structured and in a way required no memorization (which is not completely true, you have to memorize sets of rules). I then began my research into the actual process of stack memorization and came to the conclusion that I wrote about above. I came across the Williams book(s) and then went back to Harry’s The Memory Book. I decided on which stack I wanted to learn. Redford even provides the keywords specific to the stack ... so the amount of work you need to do after learning general system has been done for you! 

Here’s my point. Harry’s system has been around and used for at least 60 years. And other than the updating of some of the keywords, it‘s pretty much the same system. There is a reason for it’s longevity:  Harry’s system is flat-out genius. 


—mike

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JenniferG

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Reply with quote  #22 

I got about 90 minutes total into memorizing Redford.  I have half the stack memorized now pretty well.  Here is a video I just made using my flash cards.  I like these cards because they are easy to shuffle.  I can look at the face of the card or the back to quiz myself.  Sometimes I shuffle half the deck back to face to mix things up.  

 

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JenniferG

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Reply with quote  #23 
Memorized the second half of Redford stack in past 90 mins or so.  Spent about 45 mins on cards 27-39, 30 mins on 40-52.. and about 15 mins on 27-52.  I can recall them all but a bit slowly.. so now I am going to shuffle the entire set of flash cards together (1-52) and work on them.. sorting in order from highest to lowest, lowest to highest.. recalling card values and card locations.. really like the flash card approach. 

Btw, I just counted from 1-52 in Redford in my mind (slowly as it is still new to me) then immediately counted from 1 to 52 in mnemonica and found it very easy.   My mind stores them as separate sets or whatever and don't get the cards/locs confused.  So perhaps I'll memorize Aronson for the fun of it in a few days to see if I can keep all 3 in memory.. then after that a secret stack only I know 😋
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JenniferG

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Reply with quote  #24 
If I buy a used copy of Patrick Redford's "Temporarily Out of Order" can I still get into the facebook group and access the books videos?

I just placed a bid on used copy of the book on ebay but thinking maybe I made a mistake.
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Dustin White

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Reply with quote  #25 
Hi Jennifer,

Patrick just added some new people to the Facebook group the other day and is pretty active. Maybe messaging him on FB will get a solid answer on the used book getting entry.

I can’t recall seeing this detail come up in prior convos.
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Mbreggar

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Reply with quote  #26 
Jennifer .... so many people haven’t taken the time to try to memorize one stack let alone three!!  You’re awesome to do that! It is not a tough task, but it does take diligence and desire to want to do this. Also, as I said earlier, some have a block of sorts which artificially keeps them from doing this properly ... like me. Once I got past this block (of my own making) and devoted the time and effort, I was able to memorize the stack.

My big problem is I’m afraid if I tried to memorize another stack, at some point I’d confuse one set of keywords for another! I’m sure Harry has a remedy for that!!

As to the Redford group on Facebook, if I recall (haha...that’s funny) entry is gained by answering a question like what is the third word on page 14 ... So using a used book may not be an issue.
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JenniferG

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Reply with quote  #27 

Thank you Mbreggar.  What is your first name again?  Oh so you use keywords to remember stack?  I just brute force it with flash cards.  I associate the card directly with a number and I don't seem to get the two sets of stacks confused at all.  I can count from 1 to 52 in redford then mneumonica right after.  Of course I can do it much mroe quickly in mnemonica, because  I learned that stack like 45 days ago -- mnemonica was the first stack I learned.

I learn 25% of the deck at a time.  I take like cards 1 to 13.  I spread them out and start counting them 1,2,3 .. 13 while looking at the faces of the cards while saying the number.  Then I go down from 13 to 1 doing the same.. I do this about 5 or 10 times.   Then I shuffle them and start guessing values and locations, depending on which way the flash cards are.  At first I am horrible at guessing and get wrong like 75% of time.  But within 1/2 hour I pretty much got the 13 committed to memory by repetition.

Remember those card games, where you made a big grid of cards and you start turning over cards in certain cells and you have to remember what was there.. and after a while you start to remember what's where.  Well I find that's the case with the flash cards.  Enough repetition I just remember them. 

I find sorting them from lowest to highest and highest to lowest is one of the easiest things to do first, just like the alphabet, you associate the string of cards together and makes it easy to recall that way.    But unlike the alphabet we know what card is at what number and vice versa.  What position is "V" in, in the alphabet? I'm 49 years old and I never thought about it lol. 

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Matt G

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Reply with quote  #28 
Rote memory is far less effective for memorizing arbitrary objects than a keyword system. It's remarkably impressive that you're able to brute force it and keep in your head, but you may find that if you don't practice it regularly, you'll forget it (just like you've forgotten, for instance, what the capital of some country is or any of the other meaningless facts you remembered back in school). IMO that's what makes memory systems really stand out from the rest. I can still recite the 50 states / capitals in order, even though I haven't studied them in 10 years, because of the mnemonic techniques Harry teaches. Honestly, you really should just get any of Harry's work on memory, you won't regret it (The Memory Book is currently helping my fiancee get through the Bar Exam, she can't believe she made it through law school without it, lol).
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Mbreggar

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Reply with quote  #29 
Hi Jennifer.
First name = Mike or Michael. You pick!

Wow... brute force method!! That’s great! If it works for you, so much the better. Of course, if you go a little while without using the brute force method ... will you still remember it? To me, that has always been the shortcoming of brute force. But, if it is not an issue for you...that’s great!!

                                            
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JenniferG

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Reply with quote  #30 

You're right about forgetting stuff.. I forgot all the calculus and differential equations I learned back in college lol. 

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luigimar

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Reply with quote  #31 
I am a member of the Facebook group for the Redford stack and have been for three years, since I got the book. I remember that in order to become a member, you had to give proof of purchase of the book by sending Patrick a picture of yourself holding the book. I haven't checked if you now have to provide a word from a certain page or any other way to prove you own the book...
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Matt G

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Reply with quote  #32 
I joined a few months ago before I even had the book, while it was shipping. It's just a brief questionnaire and in fact there have been some discussions recently about letting anybody interested in the Redford Stack join the group, without even requiring proof of purchase. There should be two more books coming out (Sleightly and Completely) Out of Order too 😉


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Mbreggar

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Reply with quote  #33 
I used to have a tough time memorizing new deck order.
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Alan Smithee

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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbreggar
I used to have a tough time memorizing new deck order.


I'm not so bad if the cards are in CHSD sequence. Otherwise I'm stymied.
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JenniferG

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Reply with quote  #35 
Mike, I don't even know new deck order lol.  I know 1/2 of the deck goes up and half goes down from center.. but I forget which suits 😋
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Alan Smithee

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Reply with quote  #36 
Also posted this on the other memdeck thread. Fell  over it on Genii forum. Possibly of interest.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QKJUxp0eMEG9HJNesCEfZ9OanWBucYy1/view

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GreggBritton

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Reply with quote  #37 
I learned the Aronson Stack about 6 years ago from Geoff Williams.   I attended an afternoon lecture where he taught the stack from his book Aronson Stack for Everybody to twelve in attendance in under 2 hours.   I always had trouble learning from others because their pegs didn't hold meaning for me.  Geoff's PMS was easy and fun to learn.  To this day, I still remember the pegs as well as the Aronson stack.  He has since come out with Mnemonica for Everybody.   The best part for me is, the pegs are the same, you only change the locations.  It took me about 60 minutes to get Mnemonica in my head and now I am working on my speed. 

I think it would be great if Rudy could get Geoff to do a Saturday lecture.   Seems that others here might be interested in learning a stack and Geoff has been doing several zoom lectures for local FL clubs recently.
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Mbreggar

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Reply with quote  #38 
Great idea, Gregg!
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JenniferG

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Reply with quote  #39 
I want to learn Aronson next 😉. See if I can fry my mind! 
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JenniferG

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Reply with quote  #40 

Got my Temporarily Out of Order book today (Patrick Redford).  Wow I am LOVING this stack!  You can get into Sti Stebbens from US NDO so easily with his method with only TWO faros!   With mnemonica I have to convert US deck order to European, then do FIVE faros.  Redford is so much easier... and then you can get in and out of sti stebbens so easy with just a sequence of overhand shuffles.  Just remember a ten digit "phone number". 

I see how the StayStack is different with Redford and I see how it's mirrored.. just mirrored in a sti stebbens type order. 

I am so slow with faros.. this looks more appealing since it's just two faros and not five.  Also seems a bit more presentable than five faros..  2 faros and a lot of overhand shuffling for a mixed shuffling presentation.  Also Mnemonica has a run of like 26 cards before last faro, and to me it looks a bit unnatural to run cards that long of a time.. with Redford there are short runs then a pause before doing more short runs.

Mnemonica does look a bit more random than Redford stack but Redford is random enough for me.  I didn't even notice the pattern after memorizing the entire deck, and only found out there was after reading in the book I received today.  Plus not as many people are familiar with the Redford Stack pattern compared to Mnemonica.. so maybe it can fool a magician better I dunno 😋

That all said I still plan to retain in my mind both stacks 😉  

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