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KenTheriot

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Reply with quote  #1 
In Chapter 1 of Expert Card Technique, Hugard and Braue describe both a setup for a lift (double, triple or quad), and then the lift itself. But I am having a really hard time understanding how to do some of the steps.

Is anyone familiar with this particular method?

Thanks!

Ken 
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Bulla

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Reply with quote  #2 
What steps are you having problems with?
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Chi Han

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Reply with quote  #3 
Are you talking about the act of getting a break under the card?

You hold the deck with your right (if right handed) over the deck the deck resting in the left hand in mechanics grip.  You squeeze with your right hand.  This causes cards to sort of buckle up.  Using the finger tips of your left hand you can control how many cards spring free.

That's a really rough but I think more direct explanation of the main actions.  Really go through the steps in the book for all the subtleties and proper hand and finger positions.

Hope that helped.
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Chi Han

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Reply with quote  #4 
As for the lift itself the book instructs you to swing out the double or triple using the base of your hand as a pivot point, and your thumb to sort of push off the cards under the break.  I've never done this method outside of the first few times I read the book, but it's certainly a way to do it.
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KenTheriot

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Reply with quote  #5 
The first thing I can't seem to do is buckle the top cards (2 3 or 4) in step 4 of the "get-ready" as described thusly: "Press inwards lightly on the ends of the top cards with the thumb and second finger (of the right hand), causing them to bend upwards breadthwise at the middle."

I simply cannot make them bend/buckle upwards unless I move my left index finger under the deck and push upwards. But that last move is not in this method.

The next problem is that I simply cannot envision what is being described in Step 2 and 3 of The Lift section where the left thumb moves inward and something is supposed to happen with the cards. But I don't understand it.

Ken
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KenTheriot

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScreenguardGuy
Are you talking about the act of getting a break under the card?

You hold the deck with your right (if right handed) over the deck the deck resting in the left hand in mechanics grip.  You squeeze with your right hand.  This causes cards to sort of buckle up.  Using the finger tips of your left hand you can control how many cards spring free.

That's a really rough but I think more direct explanation of the main actions.  Really go through the steps in the book for all the subtleties and proper hand and finger positions.

Hope that helped.


I do understand that part, though I can't get the cards to buckle up without also pushing up on the bottom of the deck with my left index finger, which is not how they describe it.

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Chi Han

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Reply with quote  #7 
Hrm...  I might make a video when I get home (but that will be in 3 hours).  Think of the action as similar to a card spring, but not as hard.  You're not squeezing the whole deck either, just the top few cards.  Your left fingers hold the top of the cards as if containing the pressure like a bottle cap, you can release them one at a time.

As for the lift method I don't have my copy of Expert Card Technique on me, but if I recall correctly it was a push off with the thumb after a pinky break is gotten (via the above method), then lifting the cards with the right hand.  If you're still interested I'll be happy to make a video when I get home.

Edit:  I should mention that any video I make, is not by any means going to be perfect, but I think your problem here is with the general idea of getting the lift (the squeezing motion).  That I think I can show you, and you can go through the book and perfect it on your own.
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Bulla

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Reply with quote  #8 
Ken,

I just sent you a PM with a link to a vid I just quickly shot.  Let me know if that helps at all.  I didn't want to expose anything here.
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Chi Han

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulla
Ken,

I just sent you a PM with a link to a vid I just quickly shot.  Let me know if that helps at all.  I didn't want to expose anything here.


Good on ya Bulla!

Ken, I'll assume my assistance is not needed unless you say otherwise.

This forum is just awesomely generous.
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mark lewis

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Reply with quote  #10 

I used to do the double lift in Expert Card Technique but avoided the get ready as I found too hard. Eventually I abandoned the method and used the Vernon method described by Lewis Ganson. A thousand times easier. You simply take the top card, gesture with it with the right hand, which serves as misdirection while you push over the top card to the right and back and get a break while nobody is looking, replace the card and the job is done. I actually prefer to snap the card with the fingers of my right hand in a one handed snap to provide even stronger misdirection.

I have several methods of doing the double lift some of which require no get ready at all. I don't normally have many methods of doing one sleight but somehow the double lift crept up on me as I found great difficulty in learning it so tried different methods. It took me years to learn the bloody thing. However, for some odd reason I learned to do the pass in ten minutes!

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zarrow52

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Reply with quote  #11 
I had difficulty with the same get ready when I read Expert Card Technique, and I too left it behind. My pinky won't 'pull down' anything, ever! These days I alternate between the Larry Jennings snap double, and the strike double. I have practiced the strike double incessantly, to the point where I can "feel" for 2 cards pretty accurately, and most of the time 3 if I need a triple lift.

Sean
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KenTheriot

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Reply with quote  #12 
Yes, I got Bulla's video, which was perfect! thanks so much. I know that there are folks who don't think video helps, or that it actively hinders learning somehow. But all I can say is that I tried for hours on my own to figure out how to do this correctly, and having seen one video, everything snapped right into place! It may not work that way for others, but for me it does. Granted, I had already read the how-to multiple times and so was able to understand why the moves in the video were working and what was being done. So the reading of the description was necessary. But the addition of the video to clarify things was what I needed to put it all together.

Thanks again, Bulla - and fr your offer, ScreenguardGuy!

Ken
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KenTheriot

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark lewis

I used to do the double lift in Expert Card Technique but avoided the get ready as I found too hard. Eventually I abandoned the method and used the Vernon method described by Lewis Ganson. A thousand times easier. You simply take the top card, gesture with it with the right hand, which serves as misdirection while you push over the top card to the right and back and get a break while nobody is looking, replace the card and the job is done. I actually prefer to snap the card with the fingers of my right hand in a one handed snap to provide even stronger misdirection.

I have several methods of doing the double lift some of which require no get ready at all. I don't normally have many methods of doing one sleight but somehow the double lift crept up on me as I found great difficulty in learning it so tried different methods. It took me years to learn the bloody thing. However, for some odd reason I learned to do the pass in ten minutes!



Thanks Mark. Yes the method you described is also taught by Giobbi. I've learned Harry's version (which is the one I use most often), and am now looking for other ways to do it in order to more deeply explore the methods and have options for maximum flexibility.

Thanks again!

Ken
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Craig

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Reply with quote  #14 
Learn the pinkie count and you'll be sorted for multiple lifts
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Chi Han

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Reply with quote  #15 
Multiple ways to get into breaks I think are worth learning.  They don't take that much effort compared to something like the pass, and their utility is huge.  I usually do the vernon push off method, where in closing a spread or squaring I catch a break, but I also have a routine where I need to get a double lift after just doing a double lift and inserting the indifferent top card into the middle of the deck.  It makes no sense for me to gesture at that point, and the rhythm of the trick means I have to do the lift almost immediately after.  The break we were talking about above, I found was perfect for my needs.  It looks like a light squaring after having put a card in the centre, can be done quickly, and didn't need a spread.  Then I have to do yet another double lift, with the caveat that my hand cannot cover the card at all, so I go into the pinky count.  The pinky count would probably have worked, but there's something about the Hugard and Braue method that I just feel looks more natural.
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DV Harris

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Reply with quote  #16 
It seems I'm a little late to this particular issue, and there are lots of good advice. The Double Lift is so deceptive. It fools magicians into thinking it's an easy move to master because the concept is simple to understand. When you watch a magician perform a double lift, it rarely fools you because of the many, many tells that scream to this who know from as far away as across the room. Truth be told, The Double Lift, and The Double Lift Turnover and among the most difficult sleights to do well, and right, e.g. deceptively.

Reading the description of the difficulty being experienced, I would like to offer a bit of universal truth, with respect to card magic. As soon as you think you have a problem, loosen your grip.  There is a tendency to grip things tighter as we become more frustrated thereby creating a downward spiral. Assuming you have all your finger positions correct, it may be that the deck has a slight convex bend. This makes the method you describe more difficult.

If you are looking for a viable alternative to using a Pinky Count, you might consider using a Marlo's Hit approach to your lift/turnover.

Do good things!     ~  DV


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luvisi

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Reply with quote  #17 
Some moves will be impacted by the natural bend your cards take on based on how you handle them.  For example, if your cards naturally have backs that are convex, as if you just sprung them from hand to hand, then you will find this get ready easier than if your cards naturally have concave backs, as if you just did a LePaul spread or a one handed shuffle.
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KenTheriot

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Reply with quote  #18 
Thanks for the additional comments, which provide me with a segue into my next question[smile]. Can someone describe (or point me to a video) the 2nd method for the double lift turnover, also from Expert Card Technique? This appears on pages 27-29. The first method described seemed easy enough to follow. But I cannot picture what's being described in the 2nd one, which starts: "1. Push off the two cards with the left thumb as explained in the first method and take them between the tips of the right thumb and second finer at the right hand corners."

I can follow it up through step 2. But starting with step 3 - "Grip the sides of the two cards near the lower ends between the first joints of the right first and fourth fingers and remove the thumb" - I am totally befuddled.

Can anyone help me picture this?

Thanks!

Ken


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Bulla

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Reply with quote  #19 
Yeah that one can be pretty confusing.  I remember reading that over several times before understanding what it was.  I'll send you a video in a few minutes.
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KenTheriot

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Reply with quote  #20 
Wow. You're awesome, Bulla. Thanks.

Ken
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Deckster

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Reply with quote  #21 
It isn't described this way, but I do it with a slight bevel going to the right, not left. with my index on top of the pack.

I think, ultimately, this DL can happen instantly when the right hand comes down to take and flip the card(s) from the inside, turning them over with the thumb. So there is no pinky break transfer the cards are just turned over with the thumb. I really like it because there is no get ready and it looks like what turning a card over could look like. I am no master at this and have practiced a long time.

Others have mentioned other methods so I'll add this:

Harry's DL from AC is the serviceable lift I use often. There is no get ready.

I have a DL I use if I already have a break that looks like the card is being dealt. The pinky pushes the card to the left and the thumb  pushes the card(s) off from the outer left corner and taken with the right fingers as the thumb fakes the thumb dealing motion. It looks the same as a deal.

I don't remember the source, but I recall a Vernon double lift from a push off of two cards with the flesh just underlying the nail of the thumb, right where the nail ends and the flesh begins.  I understand it in theory, but not in practice although I have tried. It looks like the card is being dealt.  Does anyone know about this?

I love what DV Harris says above and I think the DL is too often done with the hand holding the doubles on top of the deck so tightly it looks like something is going on. I think it is Harry's idea that the cards are displayed forward over halfway over the deck and angled not precisely aligned on top the deck. Turn a card over and see if you line it back up with the cards, probably not. Of course it depends which version one is doing and how the cards are being flipped.
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KenTheriot

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Reply with quote  #22 
Thanks Deckster. I want to learn several ways to do a good DL. I appreciate the description of that one.

Ken
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magicfish

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by luvisi
Some moves will be impacted by the natural bend your cards take on based on how you handle them.  For example, if your cards naturally have backs that are convex, as if you just sprung them from hand to hand, then you will find this get ready easier than if your cards naturally have concave backs, as if you just did a LePaul spread or a one handed shuffle.

Or sometimes it can be a convex longitudinal bridge. Perhaps even a deliberate convex longitudinal bridge . ; )
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mark lewis

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Reply with quote  #24 

You do have to be very careful not to do the double lift and there is a disease prevalent among magicians known as "double lift indigestion". It is not wise to use any sleight too often and I find it wise to vary my moves. Thus I try not to use the double lift too many times in one performance. However, when I do then I vary the  move itself. I have several methods of doing this sleight.

Here are the ones I used to do but don't bother with any more.

The one in Expert Card Technique

The one in The Royal Road to Card Magic which has a certain similarity (although not exactly the same) as the one Harry uses in his ambitious card  routine.

A corner to corner lift which I once saw Bobby Bernard do. It has the advantage that no get ready is used.


OK. In the end I abandoned those and went on to the two very nice methods in the Paul Le Paul book one of which required no get ready at all. Just simple sense of touch.  The other one is a great one and I derived great amusement from seeing Vernon rail against the procedure and blaming it all on Ed Marlo but I managed to take no notice of him and do it anyway! I still do these methods occasionally but the two methods I use constantly nowadays is the Vernon Double Lift using the get ready that I described in a previous post and the Leipzig Double Lift. However, with regard to the latter I have had great results in combining Harry's kick double lift (described in Decksterity) with the Leipzig method. It is as if they were made for each other and it makes the thing a lot easier to accomplish. What I love about Leipzig's method (apart from the fact that it is little known) is that it makes a delightful little noise which I find quite therapeutic!

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Slowdini

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Reply with quote  #25 
Two words: Ron Bauer. Check this out:
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Slowdini

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Reply with quote  #26 
Thats his Riffle Action Palm and his Two-Card Turnover Technique that you can learn in his 2008 Lecture notes.
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Rudy Tinoco

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Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowdini
Two words: Ron Bauer. Check this out:


Wow!

For anyone interred in learning this, it's available here...

http://www.thinklikeaconjurer.com

I'm interested!! Thanks for sharing, Slowdini.

Rudy

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andymakar

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Reply with quote  #28 
You also might be interested in Ron's Mechanical Deck for an explanation of the Finley Vernon Double Lift

http://www.thinklikeaconjurer.com/all24rbps/mechanical/index.htm

It goes into specific detail on the get ready and the overall approach.
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HidanPain

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Reply with quote  #29 
Hello everyone!

This topic in this forum, was the only I could find about "Expert Card Technique".

I've just started to read the book, as well as learning magic, and I got stuck a little further on what was dicussed here before.
Still in Chapter I, on "THE DOUBLE LIFT TURNOVER" there are two methods, a and b.

Method a. seems fairly easy to understand.
Now, method b. I've read it time after time and find it to be to confusing. 

If anyone could explain it to me, or point me to an article that has covered this, I would appreciate your help.

Lucas
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jim ferguson

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Reply with quote  #30 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HidanPain
Hello everyone!

This topic in this forum, was the only I could find about "Expert Card Technique".

I've just started to read the book, as well as learning magic, and I got stuck a little further on what was dicussed here before.
Still in Chapter I, on "THE DOUBLE LIFT TURNOVER" there are two methods, a and b.

Method a. seems fairly easy to understand.
Now, method b. I've read it time after time and find it to be to confusing. 

If anyone could explain it to me, or point me to an article that has covered this, I would appreciate your help.

Lucas



Hi Lucas.

Method "b" is a more flourishy way to display the double. The first method taught, is of more general utility - "a" and "b" are just variations on the turnover.

If you're just starting your journey into the craft, Expert Card Technique will probably be a bit much to take in - it's not really a beginners book. Usually, the student will graduate to the book after studying some other text which is more suited to the beginner (the first book I studied was Royal Road).

My advice is to leave the book alone for the time being, and start with something a bit simpler - Royal Road, Mark Wilsons Complete Course In Magic, The magic Book, something like that. After getting a good grounding, you may want to move to Expert Card Technique (which is one of my favorite books).

The double lift and turnover is not an easy sleight - it seems simple in principle, but doing it deceptively is a different thing altogether.

Probably not the answer you were looking for, but I hope it helps.



Jim





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HidanPain

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim ferguson



Hi Lucas.

Method "b" is a more flourishy way to display the double. The first method taught, is of more general utility - "a" and "b" are just variations on the turnover.

If you're just starting your journey into the craft, Expert Card Technique will probably be a bit much to take in - it's not really a beginners book. Usually, the student will graduate to the book after studying some other text which is more suited to the beginner (the first book I studied was Royal Road).

My advice is to leave the book alone for the time being, and start with something a bit simpler - Royal Road, Mark Wilsons Complete Course In Magic, The magic Book, something like that. After getting a good grounding, you may want to move to Expert Card Technique (which is one of my favorite books).

The double lift and turnover is not an easy sleight - it seems simple in principle, but doing it deceptively is a different thing altogether.

Probably not the answer you were looking for, but I hope it helps.



Jim







Hi Jim,

Thank you for helping me out.
I gathered a couple of books and thought "Expert Card Technique" would be the one to start with. So thanks for guiding me out.

I have "Frederick Braue, Jean Hugard - The Royal Road to Card Magic-Foulsham ".
But I will try to get the other ones you suggested as well.

Lucas
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jim ferguson

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Reply with quote  #32 
The title and authors are correct - althought I've never heard/seen "foulsham" at the end of the title.



Jim


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HidanPain

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Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim ferguson
The title and authors are correct - althought I've never heard/seen "foulsham" at the end of the title.



Jim




I'll give it a read and give you my feedback.
Thanks!

Lucas
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Alan Smithee

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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim ferguson
The title and authors are correct - althought I've never heard/seen "foulsham" at the end of the title.



Jim




Nor me, though Foulsham's did publish some magic books way back. Wilfrid Jonson had a couple on their list, if memory serves:
"Mister Smith's Guide To Sleight Of Hand".
"But Not To Play".

I had these and one other that I can't remember the name of at the moment. "Let's Pretend" possibly?

Basic and useful once upon a time, but these days I think they're curios.
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HidanPain

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Reply with quote  #35 
Hi,

I'd just like to thank you for the help.
Royal Road is definitely the book to start with.


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jim ferguson

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Reply with quote  #36 
You are very welcome, Lucas.




Jim


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