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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #1 
I think there are a lot of differences between this generation and the older generation of magicians. 

I am 55 years old..been performing off and on since I was in my 20's, I like to think that I've "paid my dues ". And to me..this younger generation of magicians have it somewhat easy compaired to my generation.

Don't get me wrong here, it's not that there is a massive gap between the older and younger magicians..I just think the experience is different i.e they have Youtube, something we didn't have, and I could  go  on and on here.

So, I want to ask you what are your thoughts on this? Is this "gap " wide between the two generations or am I making more of it that needs to be made? What are the differences between the older & younger generation?

Thanks,

Rick-

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Intensely Magic

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Reply with quote  #2 
To me, you are the younger generation!

The real advantage is they can see what is possible in many different ways. Just as Jack Nicklaus moved the posts and then Tiger Woods. This allows setting goals higher, but obtainable.

To use an old expression, you can't tell who's not wearing a swimsuit until the tide goes out. I'm afraid many old timer's reputations exceeded their abilities. Video works both ways.

I do think the isolation we have, not just covid, is a really bad thing. Enthusiasm feeds on enthusiasm and everyone can be better for it.

Summary - I wish I was younger and starting over. I'm jealous.

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Daniel Young

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Reply with quote  #3 
I think part of the problem with the younger generation is that they don't appreciate things the same way. When I was growing up, I would go to the library to check out that same magic book again and again. I would learn every single trick in it, or if I found one in a book shop. Later I found out about magic shops, but still... I had my pocket money, I would buy a book or a VHS or whatever, and again, I would learn everything in it, because I might not be able to buy anymore magic for a month or two.

These days you have SO much information available, and a lot of it for free. Which can be a good thing or a bad thing. So I don't envy them in that sense, that there's almost too much stuff out there, that its difficult to know whats good and whats not.

I often compare magic to the way we consume music these days. Back in the day you would buy an album in the record store, on the way back home (maybe on a bus) you might sit and read the little booklet. You'd get home and you would listen to that album, until you knew the lyrics to all of  the songs, you the track list, how long the songs were, who produced them etc. These days (and Im guilty of this) you put on an album on spotify (or wherever) if it doesnt immediately grab you, you skip the track, you change the album or whatever. Many people consume magic the same way, which isn't good.

Although I think this problem is more prevalent in places like UK and the US, whereas if you look at Spain, they have a very strong magical culture, or if you look at Asia, where everyone has a mentor that will guide them, and they don't settle for anything less than mastery. Here in the UK I think we often think "thats good enough, now lets go to the pub for a pint" 😉

Im not really sure what my point is... but I think I made a few points there 😃


All the best,
Dan
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Chi Han

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Reply with quote  #4 
There's always going to be a huge difference.  Magic is more accessible now than ever before, it is easier to teach and learn, to form communities, to find mentors, to ask questions.  You're absolutely right, 100% people have it easier to find magic.

The type of magic that's in vogue has also changed.  Much like how at one time we had packet trick crazes, rubber band crazes, my observation, is that what's 'popular' no longer lasts a decade, but in fact only a few months.  There also is a lot more emphasis on either much more visual elements, or much more emotional elements (probably a necessity considering the video medium).  Things which function purely as puzzles tend not to gain mainstream popularity (we're talking television specials etc.).

Ironically, the above has also made it easier for magicians to have niche's.  It is much easier to do more specialised forms of magic to be able to make a living or enjoy the hobby.  The fact you can have instagram only magicians who do very well and entertain much better than most restaurant magicians you see is absurd to me, but the people who really like that stuff can now seek out the things they really like.  People can find exactly the type of magic that they enjoy.

Just about the idea of paying dues, everyone has different challenges and different advantages.  I'm sure even among the older generations there were people who had it much easier, the kid who lived next to Marlo and inherited a library for instance, vs the kid from a farm town who had to make their own tricks with a deck of cards.  I don't think you 'owe' anything to magic, but the experience shapes you.   At the end of the day, if you have access to all of this stuff, it's still down to you to make use of it.  To spend time and money learning, to hone your craft performing.

There are definitely different challenges today.  Finding decent instruction for instance.  There's so much advertising and bad advice out there, I can definitely see people wasting years on bad effects and techniques.  Having to compete with more mediums and forms of entertainment.  Difficulties with exposure (like the masked magician and youtube).  The reputation that magic now has considering how easy it is to both see amazing magicians online, as well as absolutely awful magicians.

On the whole, I feel like the good outweighs the bad.  And I think it's reflected in the quality of magic.  On the whole you have more people who do better magic than the average magician of the past because it's easier to learn, but as a contrary to that you also have a lot more people putting out terrible magic because it's so easy to broadcast and record that stuff.  Huge parallels with any art form.  Looking at cinema for instance, the incredible quality of even tiny comedy shorts on youtube shot on people's phone cameras is incredible, but there's also way more garbage out there than ever before.  As we continue to develop each generation will surpass the the previous one, both in terms of output of good stuff, and in terms of output of bad stuff.  There will always be a huge difference, but at the end of the day, it's still magic.  There is definitely going to be more in common than there is different.
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Jack Deschain

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Reply with quote  #5 

I want to go really long winded but I won't

I'm a firm believer that standing on the shoulders of giants is a valid approach and I support it whole heartedly! 

Proudly stand on the shoulders of giants!

but please give them credit!

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Socrates

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“Mass communication--wonder as it may be technologically and something to be appreciated and valued--presents us with a serious danger, the danger of conformism, due to the fact that we all view the same things at the same time in all the cities of the country" - Rollo May

An interesting perspective from Rollo May and quite fitting to the art and craft of magic.  What is the difference between the younger and older generation of magicians?  Perhaps your question is a wider one, maybe your question is more about the modern technological world in which we find ourselves.  Are things easier because we have access to more material and instruction?  When I began magic there was no internet to distract us, and there were no instructional VHS tapes either.  My approach to magic was extremely simple, I learnt a few basic techniques and ran with them.

Recently I was discussing the art of magic with a member of the illustrious Magic Circle here in the UK.  We spent hours together without producing a deck of cards or performing a single trick.  The whole of our conversation revolved around the psychology and philosophy of magic, how to improve the art form, and how so many magicians mistake their tricks for magic - well that was my most enjoyable meeting with a magician ever.

There are so many tricks, DVDs/online instruction and lectures available to us that I wonder if it is even more difficult to become a magician nowadays - it is not so much about how many tricks we know, or what books, tricks and DVDs we own, no, no, no...  the more important thing to understand is how to be unique, rather than how many tricks to learn, anyone can learn tricks, but not everyone can be a magician.
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #7 
As usual, Socrates, you hit on some really good points. I can relate to your conversation with the Magic Circle member. I've enjoyed similar meetings.

I do want to address a couple points but will have to wait till tomorrow.
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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #8 
The young are rocking it in all the arts. I'm in awe of what these young artists are doing. I think Jack nailed it when he referred to "standing on the shoulders of giants." 

The technology and especially the internet on which there's a 24/7 magic session ongoing all over the world has created the atmosphere in which we all live. The younger set began their journey in this environment. And, as a result, have advanced at an incredible rate. 

If you were at the TMF convention last night, you got to see a young magician, Lee Lee from South Korea. He's about 22. One of his mentors, Ed Kwon, is in his 20's as well. These guys are totally rocking it. They have an incredible practice ethic which us old guys should be emulating. 

Check out the young actors, musicians, dancers, magicians etc. I think this is the golden age of the arts. 

When Paul Gertner came to the table to perform at 4F a few years ago. He spoke directly to the younger magicians who were there. He said something like "Us old guys are in awe of what you young guys are doing..." 

Mike
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Powers
The young are rocking it in all the arts. I'm in awe of what these young artists are doing. I think Jack nailed it when he referred to "standing on the shoulders of giants." 

The technology and especially the internet on which there's a 24/7 magic session ongoing all over the world has created the atmosphere in which we all live. The younger set began their journey in this environment. And, as a result, have advanced at an incredible rate. 

If you were at the TMF convention last night, you got to see a young magician, Lee Lee from South Korea. He's about 22. One of his mentors, Ed Kwon, is in his 20's as well. These guys are totally rocking it. They have an incredible practice ethic which us old guys should be emulating. 

Check out the young actors, musicians, dancers, magicians etc. I think this is the golden age of the arts. 

When Paul Gertner came to the table to perform at 4F a few years ago. He spoke directly to the younger magicians who were there. He said something like "Us old guys are in awe of what you young guys are doing..." 

Mike



Gonna disagree with music. I think some of the best performers and groups are either gone or aging fast.
Personal opinion but there aren't too many new artists I'd pay to see live ( is I could!). Then there's the question whether they could perform live without Autotune.
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Alan Smithee

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Reply with quote  #10 
There's good, bad, ugly and the rest of us across the generations. 

The good don't get bad simply because they age a bit.

The young aren't good simply because they're young.

The ugly tend to stay that way.  [smile]

The rest of us? We rock and roll and groove along and watch the world go by.
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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #11 
RayJ - I generally prefer my old music from the '60s and '70s to the new stuff. But there are a number of fantastic new groups, players and singers out there. What jumps out regarding creative younger folk are people who have redefined what a guitar and other instrument are. There's a guy who plays two guitars at the same time. Truly incredible. Michael Hedges makes it seem that there's a bass, a drum and a guitar when it's just him with a modified guitar.

It seems to me that there's a "surge" in creativity. These people do know that they're "standing on the shoulders of giants" and generally mention the "giants."

You can focus on the ignorant who think David Blaine invented the Ambitious Card trick. Or you can focus on the guys who perform classics e.g. Triumph, Oil and Water et al and have taken them to new levels.

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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #12 
I'm still unconvinced on the new crop of musicians. Playing two guitars at once doesn't thrill me. Two Matrices at the same time didn't either.
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Paco Nagata

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Reply with quote  #13 
In a certain party I was invited around 2008, some young guys were performing some card magic. Good performances, by the way, however one of them said something like:

"I'm going to do that great trick that one-handed guy did on TV..."

He was refering to Rene Lavand. So then he performed Dai Vernon's "Cutting the Aces" that Lavand popularised with his great presentation.

In the end, nobody that did some card magic didn't know anything about the trick they were performing.

Finally I was invited to do some card magic... I performed "double ambitious" by Tamariz.

They asked me:

Who taught that great trick to you?

I replied:

I read it. In a Tamariz book.

They looked at me, surprised.

They were surprised because all of them learnt magic tricks without books.
So then, I could understand why they didn't know anything about those tricks they performed.

I don't know if young generation will be talented, but I know for sure they are not going to very cultured.

Maybe Youtube is killing books.

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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #14 
Most of my contact with younger magicians is at magic conventions. The people I have come in contact with are very knowledgeable about the magic literature. Sometimes even more than I am. When young magicians who learned on YouTube come to the conventions, I hope they meet the guys I'm talking about. They'll get an attitude fix quickly. I don't focus on the ignoramuses but rather the cognoscenti. 

M
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SamtheNotasBadasIWas

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Reply with quote  #15 
I am in a strange position in that I am new as a magician, but old in experience. Maybe, if I live as long as Harry, someday I will be saying, "Back in my day, we actually had to search YouTube to learn magic!" I guess I am "Old new Stock" instead of being "New Old Stock"


I can definitely, based on what I have heard, say that something much loved and valuable has been lost with the coming of the digital age. But then, we have gained as well. One of the improvements is worldwide access to different ideas, which in turn leads to innovation and it is innovation that leads to "golden ages". Of course, as Simon Lovell said, videos make you an imitator and not an innovator like books do. But I would ask, do videos make it impossible to innovate, or is it a case of poor to mediocre magicians getting more face time because they have internet access? Creative people tend to be, well creative.

I think the answer to the question the OP posted is going to be based on individual perspectives and there won't be an objective answer. But I wonder if most of the difference of opinion is coming from the fact that people are teaching other people tricks on the internet, but they aren't teaching them how to be a magician?

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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamtheNotasBadasIWas
I am in a strange position in that I am new as a magician, but old in experience. Maybe, if I live as long as Harry, someday I will be saying, "Back in my day, we actually had to search YouTube to learn magic!" I guess I am "New Old Stock" instead of being "New Old Stock"


I can definitely, based on what I have heard, say that something much loved and valuable has been lost with the coming of the digital age. But then, we have gained as well. One of the improvements is worldwide access to different ideas, which in turn leads to innovation and it is innovation that leads to "golden ages". Of course, as Simon Lovell said, videos make you an imitator and not an innovator like books do. But I would ask, do videos make it impossible to innovate, or is it a case of poor to mediocre magicians getting more face time because they have internet access? Creative people tend to be, well creative.

I think the answer to the question the OP posted is going to be based on individual perspectives and there won't be an objective answer. But I wonder if most of the difference of opinion is coming from the fact that people are teaching other people tricks on the internet, but they aren't teaching them how to be a magician?


Sam, you touched on something I was going to add to the thread at some point.  And that is that it doesn't have to be older in age versus younger, but perhaps "newer" should be the focus of discussion.  As you succinctly point out, there are folks like yourself that can hardly be called young by most standards and yet you are a relative beginner.  The things that are available to you as a beginner are way more than what I had access to.
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EVILDAN

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Reply with quote  #17 
So the younger kids have it easier. They have a plethora of material available to them and they are advancing the art in leaps and bounds with new sleights, new approaches, new visions, etc. - even if they do or don't know that they're standing on the shoulders of giants. 

How come us older folks aren't putting these new guys to shame with the base foundation of knowledge that we already built and worked for (by walking to school uphill both ways), and combining it with the plethora of material that's available to the younger crowd? 
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVILDAN
So the younger kids have it easier. They have a plethora of material available to them and they are advancing the art in leaps and bounds with new sleights, new approaches, new visions, etc. - even if they do or don't know that they're standing on the shoulders of giants. 

How come us older folks aren't putting these new guys to shame with the base foundation of knowledge that we already built and worked for (by walking to school uphill both ways), and combining it with the plethora of material that's available to the younger crowd? 


One "Youtuber" opened a video with a claim that he was "standing on the shoulders of giants and crushing them".  I turned it off.
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Alan Smithee

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Reply with quote  #19 
I used to stand on my Dad's shoulders. Now he was a giant. Him and my Mother, both.

However when I was about 20, he told me I was a bit too heavy. I've been standing on my own two feet on bumpy uncertain ground ever since. Added to which I'm short-sighted, so I can't see very far, anyway.
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Alan Smithee

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Reply with quote  #20 

Chet Holmes seems to be talking about becoming a Master. Burger seems to be grumbling about something; he often was.

Rayj says Magic has room for all sorts. Indeed. All sorts of Magic and all sorts of people. All ages. It's a broad church as some folk have been known to say.

I know people who rarely if ever do tricks. They buy, and sometimes collect, books. Like all us they have dreams, but have no pretensions about their performing ability. Far too often such folk are made to feel like lesser beings because they don’t necessarily see Magic in the same light as those who think they know what Magic and magicians should be. And aren’t backward in coming forward to tell us, very often with a sneer-laden smugness.

I’ve said it before on here and because I like the sound of it, I’ll say it again. I consider myself to be qualified enough to call myself a magician. I have always preferred the word Conjuror, but if they can be bothered, people tend to ask “Are you a magician”? It’s convenient to say “Yes”.

As a conjuror, I do tricks, I read books. I practise moves. The ones I’ve sort-of learned (mastered if we must) I play with in an attempt to stay in training. I also do it for fun. If it’s not fun, why bother. I’m passionate about Magic, but if I ever find myself getting po-faced about it and forget that it’s supposed to be fun, I take a break and put the kettle on.

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Socrates

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Reply with quote  #21 
Yes it's funny but true there are so many types of folk into magic - so we can all choose our own path... some like tricks, some like magic, some like humour, some like drama, but we all got to find our own path otherwise it's just another case of attack of the clones.

The main thing is to enjoy what you do, find what it is you want to perform, or collect, and just follow old the advice of Nike's tick and just do it!

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Alan Smithee

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Reply with quote  #22 
Back in the day, if I may, conventions were all over the place. Hardly a week went by without some get-together somewhere. Many societies had mid-week lectures, and auctions. I went to as many as I could.

No internet to speak of, video tape came and went and DVDs ruled for a bit.

I met and nattered with young, old and many (the majority) in between.

The oldies knew it all and the young folk knew it all. The rest of us knew little or nothing. Some of us were keen to learn.

Technology changes, sometimes for the better, but people are largely the same. To misquote The Who: Meet the new folks, same as the old folks.

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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Smithee

Chet Holmes seems to be talking about becoming a Master. Burger seems to be grumbling about something; he often was.

Rayj says Magic has room for all sorts. Indeed. All sorts of Magic and all sorts of people. All ages. It's a broad church as some folk have been known to say.

I know people who rarely if ever do tricks. They buy, and sometimes collect, books. Like all us they have dreams, but have no pretensions about their performing ability. Far too often such folk are made to feel like lesser beings because they don’t necessarily see Magic in the same light as those who think they know what Magic and magicians should be. And aren’t backward in coming forward to tell us, very often with a sneer-laden smugness.

I’ve said it before on here and because I like the sound of it, I’ll say it again. I consider myself to be qualified enough to call myself a magician. I have always preferred the word Conjuror, but if they can be bothered, people tend to ask “Are you a magician”? It’s convenient to say “Yes”.

As a conjuror, I do tricks, I read books. I practise moves. The ones I’ve sort-of learned (mastered if we must) I play with in an attempt to stay in training. I also do it for fun. If it’s not fun, why bother. I’m passionate about Magic, but if I ever find myself getting po-faced about it and forget that it’s supposed to be fun, I take a break and put the kettle on.



Alan, I remember a guy that was in my IBM chapter that attended every meeting and show.  He was a very kind man who never spoke unless spoken to.  He served as the scribe for the chapter and his notes were top notch.  He remembered and wrote very detailed minutes and reviews.  Never saw him with a deck of cards in his hand, only a pen.  Nothing at all wrong with that.

Just as a stamp collector might compile a raft of little squares simply to please himself, this gentleman was content and participated at the level he was comfortable with.
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #24 
There is a human tendency to fall prey to convention.  Some fall prey to the notion that everything was better in the "old days" and some fall prey to the notion that everything has progressed and certainly the newer stuff is better and the newer generation is smarter, etc.

The truth of course is more complicated.  There's a kernel of truth in both.  I belong to a forum that deals with bicycles.  I don't do it as much as I used to, but I still collect bikes and I currently have around 13.  I know, I can only ride one at a time, but they are all very nice bikes, mostly vintage, and I bought them cheap and restored them myself.  Most are worth many times what I paid.  I have sold many over the years and with the proceeds I purchased my "keepers", those that I really like and wish to hold onto.  The hobby has paid for itself.  The profits from my "flips" have allowed me to accumulate my collection.  On the forum we have what are known as "retro-grouches" and we generally define them as folks that are content to ride vintage bicycles with "outdated" equipment.  They exist in all walks of life.  In the auto industry, these are the folks that eschew fuel injection and computers in cars.

And retro-grouches exist in magic, for sure.  Some feel the current crop of "youngsters" haven't paid their dues, have a general lack of respect, etc.  They're not wrong, but they aren't right either.  The truth, again, is more complicated.

There are lots of "youngsters" putting videos on youtube and elsewhere that have not paid any dues to speak of and will expose sleights and/or tricks and generally show no respect for magic.  They don't know what they don't know.  When some of us try to "educate" them by commenting that the trick they revealed isn't theirs to reveal and that it is still a commercially-available product we are jumped on and read the riot act.  We become the problem.  Sorry, but that's just 
wrong.

A couple of people in this forum have painted a different picture of "youngsters".  I suppose it is because they have chosen to dwell not on the negative, but the positive and they hope that there can be progress made.

I try to be positive, but every time I try, I see yet another video that has no place on the 'net.  I have a hard time looking past it.  That might say more about me than the problem, but it is what it is.

On a positive note, it was a pleasure to have seen Lee Lee from South Korea and the moment when he asked John Bannon if he would allow him to show his variation of a Bannon effect.  Later, he said he didn't feel comfortable tipping something because he didn't have the permission of his mentor.  That is called integrity.  That is what is sadly lacking among many younger and newer magicians.  And not only that, many not only don't care, but are vocal about not caring and again, they see folks like me as the problem.  It's a head-scratcher, but it is what it is.

Edit:  A note about something I wrote about autos and retro-grouches.  My late father worked at Carter Carburetor.  Many here will remember them as one of the popular manufacturers, along
with Holley.  Well, my father, my uncle and later my older brother all worked there until they moved the factory.  Many years on, long after he had retired, my dad suffered from Alzheimer's.
One day, I was talking with him about Carter Carburetor and his job there.  He worked in quality control.  Well, during the conversation I informed my dad that nearly all cars nowadays are using fuel injection, and not carburetors, he couldn't believe it.  It was funny to see how perplexed he was.  He just couldn't get over it.
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Hendu71

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Reply with quote  #25 
I'm not a "young" magician, but I'm definitely a new magician.

I have bought a lot of books (and video downloads) recently, but it IS easier to watch a video on a slight or flourish, than look at a couple illustrations with a written description.  Also, watching an effect performed is also more impressive than reading it in black and white.  So it's easy to tell what you'll like before committing a bunch of hours to it.

So, yeah, I'm sure it is easier than it once was.
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendu71
I'm not a "young" magician, but I'm definitely a new magician.

I have bought a lot of books (and video downloads) recently, but it IS easier to watch a video on a slight or flourish, than look at a couple illustrations with a written description.  Also, watching an effect performed is also more impressive than reading it in black and white.  So it's easy to tell what you'll like before committing a bunch of hours to it.

So, yeah, I'm sure it is easier than it once was.


You'll get no argument from me when it comes to videos and certain sleights.  I am generally a book guy, but I have to admit there are time when you read something and you simply cannot really grasp what the author intended.

Richard Kaufman was one of the first to master the art of illustrating and indicating movement at the same time.  So you could tell what direction a hand was to move, etc.

Some of the older books contained photos which are all but useless.

The knock on videos is that some people watch a performer and then become a clone of the performer, adopting his/her mannerisms, patter, etc.  

Books require more imagination and that imagination can lead to a different outcome.
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