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Gilles

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Reply with quote  #1 
Good morning, all!
I'm not used yet with the site, but using the search function I couldn't find a thread about second dealing, that's odd and I must have missed something! I'm currently fighting - for weeks, not hours!-with Simon Lovell's push-off second deal, using the book "Second to none", as well as a couple of dvd's; I understant the finger's position, light touch, but can't get any consistency, all the time a third card comes along for the ride, how on earth do you push only two cards in perfect alignment, Mr Lovell? Or Mr England?? What's the amount of pressure applied- if this can be told with words.... No idea till now...
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Anthony Vinson

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https://www.themagiciansforum.com/post/push-off-seconds-take-tips-8430437?highlight=second+deal

https://www.themagiciansforum.com/post/the-second-deal-9798222?highlight=second+deal


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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #3 
Giles, how are you searching?  When I went to the search tab and put "second deal" into the keyword area it brought up lots of threads on false deals including this one:

https://www.themagiciansforum.com/post/push-off-seconds-take-tips-8430437?highlight=second+deal

I think it is much less important to keep two cards perfectly square than to develop a steady rhythm and a consistent take.  I would slow the deal down as much as possible especially at first.  I see gambling demos where they move so fast there is zero opportunity to see any briefs or alignment issues, but you never see anyone deal that rapidly in a typical game.  If you did, you'd pick up your money and leave.  

So if you are working on a pushoff, you might want to experiment with spreading several cards and being able to gain purchase on the second card each time, rather than trying to push off two in a perfectly square manner.  You also don't want to ever "grab air" which is a dead giveaway.  That seems to happen more on strike seconds but can happen on push-offs as well.
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Mike Powers

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Vanishing Inc is giving away a 10 trick video download right now. It's called "10 Year Anniversary Download Bundle." I believe that if you are registered with Vanishing Inc, it will appear in your downloads area automatically. I don't see it in the free downloads area.

The reason I mention this is that Andi Gladwin uses a two card push-off 2nd deal in an item taught on the video. He alludes to another video that he put out on which he spends a significant amount of time teaching the technique. 

Simon Lovell is a real expert at the two card push-off second. I think he has a set of notes that deal with this topic.

If the goal is an invisible second deal, I'd recommend checking out Jack Carpenter's technique. It's a strike second based on timing rather than a tiny brief. In Carpenter's technique, the hand holding the deck delivers the card to the dealing hand which remains largely stationary. He has been criticized for this unusual method, but it looks great to me.

Mike
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RayJ

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Mike brings up an interesting point.  If Carpenter has been criticized for his unusual method, what was the basis for the critique?  Was it because it strays from the "typical" dealing technique you see from professional dealers?
My wife and I play cards with friends quite often.  Every one of our friends shuffles a little differently and each of them deals differently.  They grip the pack differently, gather discards differently.  There simply is no uniformity.

To me it doesn't matter if his method strays from convention so long as it looks natural.  Is that the way he always deals?  Is he consistent?  Or does he alter his actions only when doing the second?  That would be my only quibble.

Dai Vernon admonished performers to "be natural"  He never said mimic others.
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magicfish

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Reply with quote  #6 
Hi Gilles. I have studied Lovell's technique. The rolling of the left thumb takes practice to bring along that second card. But it can be done. And dont forget the role of the left fingers underneath.
I will try to make a vid for you later.
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Gilles

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Reply with quote  #7 
Thanks all for your replies!
RayJ, I tried both "push-off" and "second deal" in the search windows and ended up with no answer at all... Must have done something wrong.; BTW spreading a few cards and heading for the second sounds like a great advice that I'll keep in mind, but I still wish to be successful the Lovell way!
Mike Powers: I own Andi Gladwin "master push-off" dvd, but the over-bending of the thumb to reach the card with the side of the nail, mmmh...
Anthony: thanks for the links I couldn't find by myself, I'm digging this right now!
Magicfish: thanks for the vid if you can find the time!
Have a nice day!
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Tom G

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Reply with quote  #8 
I spent a lot of time with Simon, and he considered the second deal his "best" move.  You'll need to be patient, to become proficient, it will take a lot of experimentation and practice.  Plus there are other second deals you might find a better match. One thing to realize when reading descriptions of moves, these are based on the anatomy of the author's hand.  You'll have to tweak most moves to work for you.  I have small hands and only take the written descriptions as a rough starting point. 
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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #9 
Hi Gilles - I too found Andi's method lacking. Not only does it look odd, I think it would be difficult to get consistency with it.

M
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Wayne T

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Powers
Vanishing Inc is giving away a 10 trick video download right now. It's called "10 Year Anniversary Download Bundle." I believe that if you are registered with Vanishing Inc, it will appear in your downloads area automatically. I don't see it in the free downloads area.

Mike


Thanks Mike 

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Gilles

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Reply with quote  #11 
Magicfish,
Your words "The rolling of the left thumb" seems to have triggered something in my brain....
Always the same old truth: the right words , at the right time!
Thanks a lot!
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StevePR104

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Powers
Hi Gilles - I too found Andi's method lacking. Not only does it look odd, I think it would be difficult to get consistency with it.

M


Which is why I like the strike second.  Keeping in mind that Alex Elmsley referred to his second deal as an "extended necktie," the key here (as Jason England has suggested) is the fluidity and consistency of the motion.

I necktie slightly, but not enough (IMHO) that it's apparent I'm doing something.  My brief is far larger than those used by Jason or Rod the Hop, but small enough that it enables me to deal without problem.
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevePR104


Which is why I like the strike second.  Keeping in mind that Alex Elmsley referred to his second deal as an "extended necktie," the key here (as Jason England has suggested) is the fluidity and consistency of the motion.

I necktie slightly, but not enough (IMHO) that it's apparent I'm doing something.  My brief is far larger than those used by Jason or Rod the Hop, but small enough that it enables me to deal without problem.


Steve, I'm with you on this one.  When I do seconds, they are always strike seconds.  For me they simply are more reliable.  Rhythm is key along with a relaxed left hand.

Gilles, another thing you want to avoid is developing bad habits in your false deals.  What I mean is learn to do seconds in the way you will need to do them in whatever routine they are required for.  

Some people learn by dealing straight down onto a pile on the table.  If you are doing a trick where you want to do that, fine.  But it is not necessarily helpful if your goal is to use the deal in a gambling demo.  For that, the movements are all different.  I've seen folks try to deal like they would in a card game and their movements are not fluid, nor are they deceptive.  I concluded they probably practiced their "takes" by dealing onto piles and not to "players".
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Gilles

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Reply with quote  #14 
I hear you both, Steve and Ray, and I too use the strike second in the real life when the need arises- and the only poker demo I'm working on doesn't requests seconds-... But did it never happened to you to learn a technique just for the sake or the beauty of it, just for the challenge? When I see Simon Lovell doing a push-off second, I drool...
He who was without sin should throw the first stone! Ouch! Not on my head!
Ray, special question to you: I uploaded a picture on my profile, and it doesn't shows up, but the big purple "G" vanished, what am I missing? 
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #15 
Good question on the avatar.  I am not the most technologically savvy but it worked for me when I did it.  Try it again and if it doesn't work maybe one of the moderators can assist!

Regarding learning moves for the sake of learning moves, by all means!  Some might say it is a waste if you aren't going to put it into practice but I disagree.  You can learn things in the process of achievement that might help influence other things you do use.

I'm not a musician and might be off base, but I know many people that can play multiple instruments.  Somehow I think your ability on your "main" instrument is enhanced through the versatility of playing other musical devices.

If that holds true, then moves that require intense dexterity might allow that developed skill to bleed over into sleights that you actually use.  At least it makes sense to me.
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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #16 
Simon definitely has a great push-off second deal. As I understand it, he used to play poker in the "real world" using these skills to, let's say, get an "advantage." I believe he lived in Singapore back then. He now has serious medical issues and lives in England where he has free health care as a British citizen.

Mike
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Wayne T

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilles
Ray, special question to you: I uploaded a picture on my profile, and it doesn't shows up, but the big purple "G" vanished, what am I missing? 


There is a max file size of 200mb, make sure your image is not larger, if it is you can resize it in almost any image app including Microsoft Paint.

Hope this helps, if not PM me and I will try an help you outside of this thread.

Wayne

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magicfish

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilles
Magicfish,
Your words "The rolling of the left thumb" seems to have triggered something in my brain....
Always the same old truth: the right words , at the right time!
Thanks a lot!

My pleasure sir. I believe I learned it from the description in Simon's Hardcover book.
That little "roll" is key.
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Gilles

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Reply with quote  #19 
Yes, yes, "Second to none", I've read the chapter ten times but as we say in french, my coin didn't fall ( mon franc n'est pas tombé), as it did with your message!
The right word at the right time...
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