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superdayv

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Reply with quote  #1 
I'm at The Overhand Shuffle II in RRTCM.

I have a question about how to shuffle off to a break. Should you:

A) Shuffle until you have a small packet above the break, and then use your left thumb to "hook" the remaining packet above the break on the long side?

B) Just shuffle normally, pulling cards until you've pulled everything above the break? When I try this I inevitably end up having to pull off a single card above the break.

C) Shuffle until there is a small packet above the break, then throw that into the left hand by applying more pressure to the cards below the break with the right hand, and then throw whatever is below the break into your left hand?


I made a video with exagerrated versions of each, to explain what I mean.

Thanks very much!

Edit: I just want to add that I'm doing the movements very slowly and deliberately in this video to highlight the different ways I've found to pull the pack off. That's why it looks awkward. I posted a video below of me doing it at full speed/with normal movements.
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Magic Harry

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Reply with quote  #2 
Looks good to me the way you’re doing it.
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rready

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Reply with quote  #3 
C for me
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #4 
Regardless of which one you choose, rhythm is key to making it appear to be normal. There must be no hesitation at the crucial moment. Shuffles B and C looked better than A. I'd say the way I do it resembles C in your examples.
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EVILDAN

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Reply with quote  #5 
B or C. 
The best way I found to practice something like this is to watch TV. 
Note the card on top of the deck. 
Do the OH shuffle while watching TV and not looking at your hands. 
After a few shuffles, check the top card to ensure it's the same card you looked at.
By doing this, you'll find that you can casually do the OH shuffle without looking at it. 
If you can do this while watching TV, you can do this while talking to your audience. 
Totally disarming. 
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVILDAN
B or C. 
The best way I found to practice something like this is to watch TV. 
Note the card on top of the deck. 
Do the OH shuffle while watching TV and not looking at your hands. 
After a few shuffles, check the top card to ensure it's the same card you looked at.
By doing this, you'll find that you can casually do the OH shuffle without looking at it. 
If you can do this while watching TV, you can do this while talking to your audience. 
Totally disarming. 


Great advice.  Learn to do the overhand shuffle control until you never, ever have to look at your hands.  Watching something else or even reading while shuffling is a good drill.
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EVILDAN

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Reply with quote  #7 
Just to clarify what I wrote, because I just realized you're shuffling to a break. 
I control a card to the top. 
Then I OH shuffle, thumbing off the first group, then injogging the second group of cards. 
Then I OH shuffle the remainder of the deck.
Then I use my pinky to kick open a big break between the injogged section and the first group of cards as my RH grabs the deck from my LH. 
Then I OH shuffle to the break and throw the balance on top of that. 
That maintains the top card. 
(repeat)

I could do this in my sleep. 
In performance I usually do this while I'm talking and instructing the spectator to do something else.
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #8 
I will add to the discussion something I've said before, but if you want to study the proper way to use the overhand shuffle control, study Harry Lorayne.  Pick any video where he overhand shuffles and just watch his mannerisms, his seeming carelessness with regard to the shuffle, etc.  A lot to learn from there.
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superdayv

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Reply with quote  #9 
Thank you all for the replies! I guess I am wondering which handling is correct, and want to double check that before I really commit one to memory. Or, is it a "whatever feels natural" sort of situation.
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superdayv

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVILDAN

Then I OH shuffle to the break and throw the balance on top of that. 


This is what I'm curious about. How do you shuffle to the break? Is it one of the three methods I mentioned? Thanks!
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EVILDAN

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Reply with quote  #11 
Yes, the second and third ways you did it look the same to me. 
So, use one of those, whichever feels most comfortable to you. 

The first one looks stiff, deliberate, and very suspect. Stay away from it.

Hope this works. This is what I do. 



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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by superdayv


This is what I'm curious about. How do you shuffle to the break? Is it one of the three methods I mentioned? Thanks!


By feel.  Something that comes with time.

This next comment applies to this as well as many sleights and procedures...

I read questions on this as well as some other forums and to me it is clear by the questions that some people just aren't comfortable with handling cards.  Even some that have been involved in magic for a while.

You have to get comfortable with cards.  When you put the cards in to your left hand (assuming you are right-handed) they should immediately go into your "dealing grip".  There shouldn't be any thought involved nor any adjustment of the deck.  How many times have you seen a dealing demo and right before the guy or gal goes to begin the deal, they fiddle with the deck, adjusting it into just the right spot.  Talk about telegraphing.  If you are doing a Center Deal, then maybe this is necessary, but otherwise, not good.

So do yourself a favor and spend some time working with cards, cuts, shuffles, sleights, whatever it takes, until you break yourself of the awkwardness.  I'm not speaking to anyone in particular, just those that might not be as comfortable as they'd like.  Live with a deck of cards in your hands for a few days if that's what it takes.

Try to never rely on looking at the cards when doing a sleight.  There are some exceptions, but a lot of "moves" can be done while you are looking somewhere else.
Audiences tend to look where you look.  Don't look there.
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superdayv

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Reply with quote  #13 
Just to be clear, the original video I posted was very exagerrated to make the different positions obivous. Here they are at a more normal speed/movement.

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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by superdayv
Just to be clear, the original video I posted was very exagerrated to make the different positions obivous. Here they are at a more normal speed/movement.



Honestly, you should have just shown the 2nd one and not even done the 1st one because all of the shuffles on the more recent one look fine.

Good job!
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EVILDAN

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Reply with quote  #15 
I agree, they all look good. 
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superdayv

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ


Honestly, you should have just shown the 2nd one and not even done the 1st one because all of the shuffles on the more recent one look fine.

Good job!


Thanks! Yeah I just wanted to isolate the three different ways I've found to take the cards above the break off. But I realize now that it wasn't clear, and it appeared like I was showing how I actually shuffle. [smile]

Glad to hear they look okay, thanks!
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Alan Smithee

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ


You have to get comfortable with cards.  When you put the cards in to your left hand (assuming you are right-handed) they should immediately go into your "dealing grip".  There shouldn't be any thought involved nor any adjustment of the deck.  How many times have you seen a dealing demo and right before the guy or gal goes to begin the deal, they fiddle with the deck, adjusting it into just the right spot.  Talk about telegraphing.  If you are doing a Center Deal, then maybe this is necessary, but otherwise, not good.



Generally agree, but must make the following point. 

I'm right-handed and when I hold a pack of cards in dealing grip, the cards are in my right hand.

When I overhand shuffle, I hold the pack in my left hand and peel cards into my right. When the shuffle is finished, the cards are in dealing grip. 

I have spent my whole (card) life transposing left/right and right/left.

But that's me, contrary as ever. [smile]
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by superdayv


Thanks! Yeah I just wanted to isolate the three different ways I've found to take the cards above the break off. But I realize now that it wasn't clear, and it appeared like I was showing how I actually shuffle. [smile]

Glad to hear they look okay, thanks!


Keep doing what you're doing and just make sure you can make it look that smooth while talking, etc.  You got it!
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Smithee


Generally agree, but must make the following point. 

I'm right-handed and when I hold a pack of cards in dealing grip, the cards are in my right hand.

When I overhand shuffle, I hold the pack in my left hand and peel cards into my right. When the shuffle is finished, the cards are in dealing grip. 

I have spent my whole (card) life transposing left/right and right/left.

But that's me, contrary as ever. [smile]


No problem, but you got my general point.  I see (not so much here, but elsewhere) a lot of people asking questions about card handling, shuffling, lifts and turnovers and it becomes obvious they just haven't spent enough time getting comfortable with cards.

How many professional keyboard players sit and look at their instrument?  None, because they just know where the keys are.  Oh, they may glance or look at the keys when they are adding some "body English" into the performance for effect, but the fact is they don't really need to.  Guitarists don't need to look either.  Why should magicians be any different.  That's all I'm saying.
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superdayv

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Reply with quote  #20 
I might as well post this question here instead of adding a new thread.

When doing an overhand lift shuffle, how big of a break do you have between the original bottom of the deck, and the new packet that you pick up? In addition, is the packet that you pick up paralell to the botom of the deck, or on a diagonal?
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by superdayv
I might as well post this question here instead of adding a new thread.

When doing an overhand lift shuffle, how big of a break do you have between the original bottom of the deck, and the new packet that you pick up? In addition, is the packet that you pick up paralell to the botom of the deck, or on a diagonal?


The packet on the back makes a wedge, or "V" shape when I do it.  As far as the size of the brief, as small as you can make it and still maintain control.  No need to make it microscopic, but smaller is better for obvious reasons.

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rready

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Reply with quote  #22 
For me the bottoms of both packets are touching with about an inch of space up top if that makes sense (like a V looking at the front).
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superdayv

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Reply with quote  #23 
Thank you both! Just to clarify, exactly which side forms the point of the V? Lets call the two long edges the floor side and the ceiling side, and the two short edges the outer and inner sides.

Thanks!
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #24 
The lower, long sides of the cards touch. So just like a V, closed at the bottom, open at the top.
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superdayv

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ
The lower, long sides of the cards touch. So just like a V, closed at the bottom, open at the top.


Gotcha! Thanks very much.
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Alan Smithee

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Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ

No problem, but you got my general point. 
That's all I'm saying.


I do get your point and did say I agree. I'm no guitar player, but I don't need to look at the fretboard when strumming the few chords I know.

My point, which is why I used the word "contrary," was in relation to my own right-hander/left-hander  situation.

I recall being brassed off to the back teeth when Kaufman published what I think was Darwin Ortiz's first big book. Ortiz is left-handed and I half hoped it might be written that way. 

It wasn't of course, but in the end it made me laugh. All the photographs were printed reversed.
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