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KenTheriot

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Reply with quote  #1 
I started into magic in Nov 2014. So it's not quite been 4 years. But I started practicing the muscle pass about Jan 2014, and I practice it just about every day for a period of time.

I can use it in a few routines - Kainoa's Bachelor Routine, Table Hoppers Quattro (also Kainoa), and a thing I'm working on by Shoot Ogawa. 

Now I feel I need some advice from those who really work with the MP. It isn't where I want it to be and I don't know why.

It's just sort of "OK" - barely good enough to be in these routines I mentioned. But after 3+ years of regular MP practice, I still cannot get it to shoot any higher than it did after the first month I started working on it, which is about 8 inches. I was hoping that after all this time and work it would go at least a foot or more.

Also, I've got this pretty significant callus on the meaty part of my right hand by the base of the thumb. It does help with the launching of the coin. But sometimes it is too big for the coin to get over. And it also causes pain when I practice, possibly because it's too much of a callus? I don't know.

One last thing I'm also feeling like is a problem is that even when I hold my hand with the palm up and horizontal to the ground, the coin still flies up slightly at an angle to the pinky side of my hand. This makes some sense, since the meaty part of the base of the thumb is where most of the pressure comes from and is on the right of the hand, pushing the the coin to the opposite side as it flies up. Am I doing something wrong that it does this though? If so, is there a way to correct it?

Thoughts on these 3 complaints about my muscle pass?

Thanks!
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Tom G

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Reply with quote  #2 
I'm kind of in the same boat Ken. Sometimes I get a good pop other times nothing. Plus I can't get the coin into position without it looking like I'm getting a coin into position.....
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Bmat

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Reply with quote  #3 
First mistake is practicing every day.  You are trying to train a muscle and it needs to rest.  When I first started I practiced until it hurt (never let a callus develop) then stopped for a few weeks.  Then when I picked it up again my brain knew what to do and all was good.  Eight inches is a pretty good height.  You may not be able to get it to go much higher depending on your muscles.  There are limits.   In my experience going over a foot is quite a reach. 

If you practice all the time and are getting the exact same results and are not happy with those results then I hate to be the one to tell you, but you are practicing your mistakes. 

The only way to change the direction of the coin when it flies is to change the position of the hand, which may be difficult as you have pretty much been doing this the same way for 3 years and is now ingrained in the brain. 

The problem with moves like this is that we are all different and the move relies on our muscles, hand position, size of palm etc.  Anyone can learn it, but we can't all learn it the same way with the same results.   But you can minimize your issues by remembering you are training a muscle and it is a little different. After three years of practice it has been trained, but maybe not the way you want. So changing the outcome may be more difficult now than ever. 

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Michaelblue

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Reply with quote  #4 
I love coin magic and I have lots of routines I do, but I have never bothered with the muscle pass. Something about the "coin falling up" thing that bothers me. Or maybe I just don't want to practice. Took me long enough to get the coin roll down
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KenTheriot

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Reply with quote  #5 
Thanks for the replies!

Bmat - you may be right about practicing and ingraining something wrong. That's one of the reasons I posted here about it. I'm not afraid of changing the way I do it. I am a coin magician, so I have the defective gene sequence that doesn't mind repeating something many thousands of times :-).

Michael - While 2 of the routines I use the MP in do have the coin falling up thing, the bits from Shoot Ogawa do not. He does some pretty cool stuff with lateral and essentially invisible muscle passes that are utility moves to get a coin from one place to another. Some of these are similar in nature to what Dan Sylvester does with his pitch. I can't wait to master some of these routines and be able to do them for actual people. Not quite there yet. But when I am, I'll put up a video.
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Michaelblue

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Reply with quote  #6 
Sylvester pitch I Ike a lot. Go figure. I feel anxious. Got to chill
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MagicTK

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Reply with quote  #7 
With coins in the Muscle Pass position, in college, I used to squeeze a silver dollar in both of my hands until I had black and blue circles to build up the muscles.  The marks typically didn't last very long.  I have to use dollar size because I have large hands.  A $.50 is just slightly too small for me to get enough of a jump.  I can still do it, but it's more impressive with a dollar.  I can get about a foot, even if I place my hand on a flat surface.  I usually perform it free-air and with a very slight motion of the wrist, you can add to the total height without it looking like you are tossing it.  I don't position my hand perfectly flat.  I usually try to adjust my body (turn to my left) so the thumb (outer side of my hand) is facing toward them, so they don't see what's really happening in the palm.  But then I do whatever it takes to make it go up rather than at an angle like what you're experiencing. 

I find if I have any lotion on my hands, it slips too much and just doesn't jump as high.  Usually I get the best jumps after washing and drying my hands or if I just grab a coin and haven't MP'd for a while.

I used to do the "coin falling up" patter, but I also didn't care for it as much.  Now I tell people I'm going to let them in on a deep secret of magic.  I tell them I use an invisible frog hair.  Then I pull it out of my pocket and ask if they can see it (just to see if they answer yes).  Then I wrap the invisible frog hair around the silver dollar and the other end around my middle or pointer finger.  Then I "stretch" it by moving my hands apart and suddenly the coin jumps.  I repeat it a few times, then say, "I'm just joking.  See, it's really a rubber coin."  Then I do the rubber coin move, then slam/drop it on the hard table, to further mess with their mind.  I can't say the invisible frog hair is much better, but it's definitely different from what other magicians are doing.  I'd hate to approach someone and ask if they have seen a coin fall up and have them say they've already seen that routine from another magician.

I remember years ago I was at a John Carney lecture, and he mentioned that either he did this or another magician did.  you pick up a glass tumbler and turn it sideways/horizontal with the mouth toward your palm, and the other hand would muscle pass the coin and it would bounce off the palm of the hand holding the glass and into the glass, making it seem like it penetrated the bottom of the glass.  I had practiced it for a while but never actually used it in a performance.


Tom


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Intensely Magic

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Reply with quote  #8 
A million years ago I attended a convention and saw John Cornelius for the first time. It was the first time that I saw the muscle pass. Like most things John did, only he could really do it right. Anyone that says this is not magical never saw him do it. It just seemed to float from hand to hand.

Your post jogged a, long forgotten, memory. I remembered some terrific instruction on the web for the muscle pass and the classic palm.

Found it! Coinvanish.com. This was Dan Watkins site. it was last updated in 2010. The information under Foundations is excellent. If you have trouble getting past the password, you can easily go directly to it from Google. It was never a pay site and the simple password was just to stop non-magicians.

I/m

Dan Watkins was "the next big thing" in coin magic for a couple of years. Kolhler DVD, books, conventions etc. Then he was gone. Never heard anymore, not that it is any of my business.

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ZAVIADELITA

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Reply with quote  #9 
If I could do one as high as yours Ken I would be happy. The muscle pass first use I belive, but not sure ,was just used to shoot a coin into your other palm so you could make the coin appear or be able to show the other hand empty. I still just use it for this as trying to shoot it straight up is a disaster for me.
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