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JoshP06

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I kinda feel stupid for posting this but I am truly wondering how the Devil became entwined with magic. I've noticed especially on old magic art, such as Thurston, there are little demons on his shoulder and whispering in his ear. There are a few others that I can recall, that had art like that. What is that all about?

Was it just to make the magician seem more mysterious and make it seem as if it is actual magick(occult)? Was it meant as a joke? Other things?

We've also heard about the stereotypical idea that people who do magic somehow sold their soul to the devil. Where does that originate?

Can't wait to see your responses.

Fill me in if you can.

Thanks in advance.

BTW...Let's not turn this thread into a theological debate. Please. If you believe in Satan and demons, then you do. If you don't, then you don't okay? Thanks. [smile][smile]

Josh
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SamtheNotasBadasIWas

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Magic is forbidden in Christianity. Mankind is not supposed to have magical power, therefore they only place you could get them was from the Devil, specifically by signing a pact with him. I do not know why imps were popular fare in the early 20th Century, other than magicians did in fact claim to have magical powers and then did their stage illusions to prove it. I suppose the inclusion of imps and devils in the advertising was meant to reinforce the idea that their powers were real.


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TheAmazingStanley

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If someone asks, I say yes I do my magic by the power of Satan. They never believe me. Probably because it’s hard to say that with a straight face. I of course point out that if I was in league with Beelzebub do you think I’d be wasting my newfound powers on card tricks? Private jets, women, Lamborghinis, Elmsley Counts...

Not that I have this conversation often. But really, if you can’t figure out a trick, there are only two real explanations: a trick deck or Satan. Let no one say I use trick decks!


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Bob Farmer

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I have plenty of tricks using Satan as a theme, including, "Satan Is My Buddy," attached, but I use it as a joke, never serious and no one takes it seriously--it's like a horror movie.

 
Attached Files
pdf Satan Is My Buddy-2018-02-17.pdf (207.83 KB, 21 views)

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John Cowne

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Hey Josh a fair (and definitely not stupid) question and a fair request not to get ‘theological’.
Sam has already said that ‘magic’ is forbidden in Christianity. And in the context of actually trying to ‘connect’ and ‘use’ occult powers, that is true. So in Acts 8:9, the Greek word is μάγος which can be translated “of foreign origin (here linking to Old Testament Hebrew רַב־מָג); “a Magian, i.e. Oriental scientist; by implication, a magician: sorcerer, wise man“. In that context, the guy was definitely messing with occult stuff. That’s where the idea of linking the devil and that particular kind of ‘controlling the supernatural’ comes from. And that’s what raises the anxiety/opposition in certain groups.

But as far as what we do here (I think I’ve got the majority vibe of TMF right), we don’t seriously ascribe to that as the source of our ‘magic’...we use ‘tricks’ and don’t pretend we are really in league with the devil or any other form of supernatural power. So here we are: one group using The word ‘magic’ in one particular sense, while others use it in an entirely different sense. Context is everything.

So I totally understand how some of the responders here mention, with tongue firmly planted in their cheek, that they say they do their magic via Satan or whatever. It’s for a laugh, and hopefully audiences pick up on it. Personally, I do a lot of my magic with kids, so I can’t afford to have any ambiguity lingering in their tiny minds. So I would deliberately dissociate myself from that approach. It would do more damage for our genuine magic community, and I don’t want to do that. Hopefully, I haven't skated too close to the ‘theological’ issue, but I think this at least partly answers your question. It’s a question I am occasionally asked by religious and secular individuals, so whatever direction we come from, it’s worthwhile thinking it through.
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John Cowne

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Reply with quote  #6 
Oh, and when someone asks, “How did you do that?”, I often reply, conspiratorially, “Very well, don’t you think?”.
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Rick Franceschini

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Reply with quote  #7 
I'll bet Jim Steimeyer could probably do this question justice.  The use of secular images in advertising goes back to the "start" of what is functionally considered its beginings.  Both angelic and demonic figures have been used to sell people and products, thus a sort of rebranding of devils and angels took place.  Indeed the terms deviled and angelic, by the 18th and 19th  centuries were used to describe foods like deviled eggs and angel food cake.  It's this rebranding, this softening of the images of angels and devils that likely led to it being acceptable for magicians to use the imagery in connection with their advertising posters.  Then there is the dark Grand Guignol theatre of late 19th century where audiences turned out for dark / gothic performances.  It proved that folks of all social classes had a desire for the dark and macabre.  Horror theatre and films were not far off.  Finally the colors red and yellow are also the most psychologically gripping colors, so that must have it's place there as well.

red.jpg 


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JoshP06

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Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Cowne

It’s a question I am occasionally asked by religious and secular individuals, so whatever direction we come from, it’s worthwhile thinking it through.


I completely agree John.
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JoshP06

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Cowne
Oh, and when someone asks, “How did you do that?”, I often reply, conspiratorially, “Very well, don’t you think?”.


I usually say, with a straight, serious face, "If I told you, I'd have to make you disappear?" Most of the time people laugh. Or this one I just thought of, "Do what?". Just say it as if you really don't know what happened and are extremely confused and lost.

But yeah.

Josh
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JoshP06

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Reply with quote  #10 
Very interesting Rick.

That makes sense as well.

Didn't know that there was a History of Magic book.

Josh
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SamtheNotasBadasIWas

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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Cowne
Hey Josh a fair (and definitely not stupid) question and a fair request not to get ‘theological’.
Sam has already said that ‘magic’ is forbidden in Christianity. And in the context of actually trying to ‘connect’ and ‘use’ occult powers, that is true.  


I should have been more clear about what I meant by magic as I just assumed everyone would understand I was referring to "occult powers" and not legerdemain. Dealing with things occult is forbidden in Christianity (perhaps I should say the Judeo-Christian tradition), and I assumed the OP was referring to Western traditions based on Judeo-Christianity due to the audience for which Kellar and the like would have performed would have been Judeo-Christian, by and large.

All that being said, my best guess is still they magicians of that era based their shows on performing "real magic", even if it was just theater. I suppose having the imps on their posters would be intriquing adversting.

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John Cowne

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Reply with quote  #12 
You're right, Sam. I don't think there's any confusion with the term when we discuss it here in TMF. You were very clear. But I find in my context, being a church  worker - primarily with kids - that I do have to do some 'explaining' every now and then. So far, it's never been 'damage control'. It's a great opportunity to try and be an ambassador for the magic community, although it is not my primary role or what I'm paid to do. All in all, my experience has been very positive with how I do magic in churches and schools.
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SamtheNotasBadasIWas

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Cowne
You're right, Sam. I don't think there's any confusion with the term when we discuss it here in TMF. You were very clear. But I find in my context, being a church  worker - primarily with kids - that I do have to do some 'explaining' every now and then. So far, it's never been 'damage control'. It's a great opportunity to try and be an ambassador for the magic community, although it is not my primary role or what I'm paid to do. All in all, my experience has been very positive with how I do magic in churches and schools.


Yeah, that's a fine line to walk. I posted a thread not long ago about claiming magical powers. I am not comfortable with that normally, but I have been thinking about it for "magical theater".  Maybe. Dunno.

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Rudy Tinoco

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Reply with quote  #14 
Great question, JoshP06!

I've had to answer this question a lot. I'm the pastor of Old Town Church in Forest Grove. Many people have asked me how I can be a magician and still call myself a Christian.
They get the idea that magic is "of the devil" from certain verses in the bible, like Revelation 21:8 where "those who practice magic arts" are in big trouble.

John Cowne did a great job explaining my own position on the matter. What we're doing as magicians is a far cry from the stuff that the bible is talking about. Unfortunately, in spite of my attempts to explain this to certain folks in my church community, they've still concluded that I'm compromising my faith and chose to leave for another church.

Sadly, it makes it very easy to see how something like the Salem witch trials happened.

Rudy

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JoshP06

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Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tinoco


What we're doing as magicians is a far cry from the stuff that the bible is talking about.


Rudy


Exactly, 100%. Simple case of magic(manipulation) and magick (occult).

The Bible is most definitely talking about people who delved into demonic forces when it comes to magic.

It's always been around and will continue to be around until the end.

Josh
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TheAmazingStanley

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Cowne
Hey Josh a fair (and definitely not stupid) question and a fair request not to get ‘theological’.
Sam has already said that ‘magic’ is forbidden in Christianity. And in the context of actually trying to ‘connect’ and ‘use’ occult powers, that is true. So in Acts 8:9, the Greek word is μάγος which can be translated “of foreign origin (here linking to Old Testament Hebrew רַב־מָג); “a Magian, i.e. Oriental scientist; by implication, a magician: sorcerer, wise man“. In that context, the guy was definitely messing with occult stuff. That’s where the idea of linking the devil and that particular kind of ‘controlling the supernatural’ comes from. And that’s what raises the anxiety/opposition in certain groups.

But as far as what we do here (I think I’ve got the majority vibe of TMF right), we don’t seriously ascribe to that as the source of our ‘magic’...we use ‘tricks’ and don’t pretend we are really in league with the devil or any other form of supernatural power. So here we are: one group using The word ‘magic’ in one particular sense, while others use it in an entirely different sense. Context is everything.

So I totally understand how some of the responders here mention, with tongue firmly planted in their cheek, that they say they do their magic via Satan or whatever. It’s for a laugh, and hopefully audiences pick up on it. Personally, I do a lot of my magic with kids, so I can’t afford to have any ambiguity lingering in their tiny minds. So I would deliberately dissociate myself from that approach. It would do more damage for our genuine magic community, and I don’t want to do that. Hopefully, I haven't skated too close to the ‘theological’ issue, but I think this at least partly answers your question. It’s a question I am occasionally asked by religious and secular individuals, so whatever direction we come from, it’s worthwhile thinking it through.


Good exegesis! Reading the story of Simondini through different eyes is an interesting exercise because depending on how you view the world something completely different is happening.

You could view this story as the guy was really practicing sorcery, for real, as the text says. But if you are skeptical about that stuff, or if you do believe it but think the actual practice of sorcery is rare, then the guy was an ancient Eva Carrière, a con artist who made people (including the writer) *think* he had majickal powers and amassed fame and fortune on their gullibility.

Different perspectives but both viewpoints would agree this guy was greedy and full of himself! That’s a takeaway anyone can get from this story. Don’t let your ego ruin you as a person.

And yeah I agree, I wouldn’t tell kids I’m in cahoots with Old Scratch. Even if you personally see him pretty much as a whimsical cartoon character, that could be scary to a kid.

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TheAmazingStanley

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tinoco
Great question, JoshP06!

I've had to answer this question a lot. I'm the pastor of Old Town Church in Forest Grove. Many people have asked me how I can be a magician and still call myself a Christian.
They get the idea that magic is "of the devil" from certain verses in the bible, like Revelation 21:8 where "those who practice magic arts" are in big trouble.

John Cowne did a great job explaining my own position on the matter. What we're doing as magicians is a far cry from the stuff that the bible is talking about. Unfortunately, in spite of my attempts to explain this to certain folks in my church community, they've still concluded that I'm compromising my faith and chose to leave for another church.

Sadly, it makes it very easy to see how something like the Salem witch trials happened.

Rudy


Omg 😮 people actually left your church because you are a magician? Wow just wow. I’m speechless.

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Magic Harry

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Reply with quote  #18 
There are a lot of Christian Magicians who use magic as a teaching tool. Does this conflict with their Church's belief that magic is the Devil?
Magic Harry

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TheAmazingStanley

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAmazingStanley


Omg 😮 people actually left your church because you are a magician? Wow just wow. I’m speechless.


The thing that really makes my blood boil about stuff like this isn’t theological or ecclesiastical. People can think what they want. What bothers me is the disregard for the art form. You put years of practice and study into learning a performing art. For someone to think it’s just selling your soul and reciting some spells is an insult to the hard work you put into learning your craft.

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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic Harry
There are a lot of Christian Magicians who use magic as a teaching tool. Does this conflict with their Church's belief that magic is the Devil?
Magic Harry


No and Rudy explained why. Individuals have the ability to disagree.
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RayJ

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAmazingStanley


Omg 😮 people actually left your church because you are a magician? Wow just wow. I’m speechless.


Individuals make choices.
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Alan Smithee

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ


Individuals have the ability to disagree.


Yes they do. I do it all the time. In fact, I'm world famous at home for doing just that. And quite well known for the same antics in other places.
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Alan Smithee

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ


Individuals make choices.


Yes they do. I do it all the time. In fact, I'm world famous at home for doing just that. And quite well known for the same antics in other places.

Deja Vu anyone?  [smile]

Incidentally, people making choices is one reason I've never been too happy with my Classic Force. Individuals insist on making their own choice and go their own way.

Incidentally, part the second.....Aren't cards considered to be the Devil's Playthings? So, referencing TheAmazingStanley's post, why wouldn't the devil and his imps be doing card tricks? Possibly learned from Erdnase, sometimes known as the card man's bible.

More smiling emojis just to show I'm keeping this as light as I can.

[smile] [smile] [smile] [smile] [smile] [angel] [wink] [wink] [wink] [wink]
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Alan Smithee

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Reply with quote  #24 
Anyone ever used "The Soldier's Prayer Book"? Or "Almanac" as it's sometimes called.

The first time I heard of this was on a UK TV show in about 1876. "Sunday Night At The London Palladium". Howard Keel sang a few songs and then recited it.
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Mind Phantom

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Reply with quote  #25 
I noticed that Joel Osteen never talks about the Devil..but rather refers to the Devil as " the enemy ", in other words, he lets someone else ( his audience - those who are at the church and those who are watching at home ) decide just who " the enemy " is.

Also, I think these kinda beliefs run in cycles, for example look at all those people who believed they were being abducted at night by ET's. Where did all those people go? The X Files was a great show, but you never see these people on TV telling there story.

I do believe in Non-Physical Beings ( it's a long story ) as I have had interactions with some. A really good book I can recommend would be Graham Hancock's Supernatural or you can find him on Youtube talking about it. Yes, I've done the whole brew thing with a shaman.

It's interesting that the Rider-Waite Tarot Deck has a lot of Christian artwork in there cards, but some people think that there evil. Well, some older people anyways.

Rick,

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Alan Smithee

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Reply with quote  #26 
Going back to imps and demons and whatnot, for long enough Davenports put their stuff out as Demon Magic.Maybe they still do. I never gave it a thought. Just their trademark, I suppose.
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TheAmazingStanley

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Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Smithee


Yes they do. I do it all the time. In fact, I'm world famous at home for doing just that. And quite well known for the same antics in other places.

Deja Vu anyone?  [smile]

Incidentally, people making choices is one reason I've never been too happy with my Classic Force. Individuals insist on making their own choice and go their own way.

Incidentally, part the second.....Aren't cards considered to be the Devil's Playthings? So, referencing TheAmazingStanley's post, why wouldn't the devil and his imps be doing card tricks? Possibly learned from Erdnase, sometimes known as the card man's bible.

More smiling emojis just to show I'm keeping this as light as I can.

[smile] [smile] [smile] [smile] [smile] [angel] [wink] [wink] [wink] [wink]


First, this is exactly why I am terrified to do a classic force. I am convinced that every person I try it on is going to be that guy who just to be perverse insists on taking the one on the end. I am quite in awe of the audience management skills of anyone who pulls that off.

As for cards, they are gambling paraphernalia, yes, and as such could indeed be just the tool the devil uses to lead the unsuspecting dabbler to his ruin. For me though, what I meant was if I really was immersed in the occult and had figured out how to bend reality to my will, I would be using those powers to gain something more glamorous than a perfect middle deal. But then I could always win at cards. But if I had magical powers I would just poof a pot of gold into existence so I wouldn’t need to risk getting shot cheating at cards to get rich. But if I had magical powers a bullet wouldn’t..oh never mind.

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Paco Nagata

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Reply with quote  #28 
Wasn't MAGIC Jesus Christ's miracles?

I don't quite understand why MAGIC would be related to Evil.

I guess there are BAD MAGIC as well as GOOD MAGIC. It would depend on the purpose.

By the way, Mr. Farmer, thanks a lot for sharing that piece of art :-)

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SamtheNotasBadasIWas

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paco Nagata
Wasn't MAGIC Jesus Christ's miracles?

I don't quite understand why MAGIC would be related to Evil.

I guess there are BAD MAGIC as well as GOOD MAGIC. It would depend on the purpose.

By the way, Mr. Farmer, thanks a lot for sharing that piece of art :-)


I do not think this question could be answered without getting into theology.

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Rudy Tinoco

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Reply with quote  #30 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paco Nagata
Wasn't MAGIC Jesus Christ's miracles?

I don't quite understand why MAGIC would be related to Evil.

I guess there are BAD MAGIC as well as GOOD MAGIC. It would depend on the purpose.

By the way, Mr. Farmer, thanks a lot for sharing that piece of art :-)


Hi Paco,

Like Sam said, it's hard not to talk about Jesus without turning this into a conversation about theology. I never want you or anyone to feel like they're being preached at, so we strive to keep the forum clear of promoting one faith over another.

I really appreciate how everyone has been able to talk about this subject without derailing the thread. 

Thank you!

Rudy

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Alan Smithee

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAmazingStanley


For me though, what I meant was if I really was immersed in the occult and had figured out how to bend reality to my will, I would be using those powers to gain something more glamorous than a perfect middle deal. But then I could always win at cards. But if I had magical powers I would just poof a pot of gold into existence so I wouldn’t need to risk getting shot cheating at cards to get rich. But if I had magical powers a bullet wouldn’t..oh never mind.


I think I knew that. [smile]
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Paco Nagata

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tinoco


Hi Paco,

Like Sam said, it's hard not to talk about Jesus without turning this into a conversation about theology. I never want you or anyone to feel like they're being preached at, so we strive to keep the forum clear of promoting one faith over another.

I really appreciate how everyone has been able to talk about this subject without derailing the thread. 

Thank you!

Rudy

Oh, I see! I didn't mean to promote Jesus. I only wanted to give an example, but I understand perfectly your point. I will take those details into account in the future.
Thanks for your advise, Rudy! :-)

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Rudy Tinoco

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Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paco Nagata

Oh, I see! I didn't mean to promote Jesus. I only wanted to give an example, but I understand perfectly your point. I will take those details into account in the future.
Thanks for your advise, Rudy! :-)


No problem, Paco. You asked a very good and relevant question. I'm just trying to do my best to avoid controversy.

I hope that you can join our Saturday Session this afternoon 😉

Rudy

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Paco Nagata

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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tinoco
I hope that you can join our Saturday Session this afternoon 😉

Rudy

I wish, I wish, Rudy! [smile] But, for the time being, my family life does not allow me to joint video sessions yet. I play two roles: father and brother of my single little son, besides that 2 PM Pacific is 11 PM in Europe; too late for my current life-style. Anyway let's see in the near future [wink]
Talking about future, I promised my son to watch tonight on TV (right now) "Back to the Future"...

Oh my! This is what I call derail a thread! [crazy] Sorry! [crazy]

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marko29

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Reply with quote  #35 
Not to offend anybody or go into religion, I post this only because it is an odd and little known fact: In early Christian art found in catacombs and sarcophagi, Jesus was often depicted using a magic wand. Just google jesus and wand and you'll get plenty of images like the one below where a young, unbearded Jesus is seen using his magic wand on Lazarus to effect the resurrection.

wand 1.jpg 

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Rudy Tinoco

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Reply with quote  #36 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marko29
Not to offend anybody or go into religion, I post this only because it is an odd and little known fact: In early Christian art found in catacombs and sarcophagi, Jesus was often depicted using a magic wand. Just google jesus and wand and you'll get plenty of images like the one below where a young, unbearded Jesus is seen using his magic wand on Lazarus to effect the resurrection.

wand 1.jpg 


Interesting!!

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JoshP06

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Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by marko29
Not to offend anybody or go into religion, I post this only because it is an odd and little known fact: In early Christian art found in catacombs and sarcophagi, Jesus was often depicted using a magic wand. Just google jesus and wand and you'll get plenty of images like the one below where a young, unbearded Jesus is seen using his magic wand on Lazarus to effect the resurrection.

wand 1.jpg 


Well that is a 5th century AD depiction of Jesus. There is little to no Christian art prior to 3rd century AD. So that doesn't seem to be biblical since the Bible was finished by 100 AD, give or take a couple decades.

Josh














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marko29

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Reply with quote  #38 
Some magicians mid 19th century began using angels in their publicity but, when did they begin using devils? Who was the first magician to do so? It would be interesting to research. What I see is that devils seem more "atractive" than little angels. Besides, magicians used devils or more correctly, demons, in the same way they were used in ancient Greece: as a guiding spirit such as Socrate's inner voice, his "daemon". That's what demons were in the long long ago: guiding spirits or benevolent nature deities.
angels.jpg 
In many posters, magician's demons whispered secrets in his ear or held books filled with secret wisdom for him to read: a type of guiding spirit, this one associated with wisdom:
thurston.jpg 
Magician's demons were, then, purveyors of knowledge or even assistants to the magicians (in posters, of course). However, some magicians even went as far as to "beat the Devil":

carter.jpg 
This is a very interesting topic. Similar to it is the use in magician's posters of skulls, the image of Death and images related to Spiritism.

Marko



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JoshP06

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Awesome post Marko
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Reply with quote  #40 
Many thanks for the comment, Josh... and also many thanks for initiating the topic. It's very interesting and a part of our lore.
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JoshP06

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Reply with quote  #41 
Yeah of course haha! [cool]

It was a topic I wanted to know more about. And it was a topic that surprisingly wasn't talked about at all on any magic forums.

I would presume the association between the Devil and magic may have entered our subconsciouses when were children. Just my thoughts.

Josh
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TheAmazingStanley

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Reply with quote  #42 
Yeah of course haha! [cool]

It was a topic I wanted to know more about. And it was a topic that surprisingly wasn't talked about at all on any magic forums.

I would presume the association between the Devil and magic may have entered our subconsciouses when were children. Just my thoughts.

Josh]

The devil become popular in the mid 60s, right around the time I was born, and he was indeed associated with magic, but in an interesting way. Magus Anton LaVey wrote a great deal about magic. Get that, Magus. Although to him magic was basically catharsis or the application of will to one’s circumstances, he was a student of black magic and never went too far out of his way to rectify the perception that he was a dark sorcerer. So it is ironic that LaVey, an atheist, was instrumental in perpetuating, even in the rationalistic 60s, the idea that magic is the practice of the black arts.

I don’t know, and would love to know if someone does, if he also practiced the deceptive arts, the kind of stuff we do here.

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JoshP06

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Reply with quote  #43 
Well LaVey basically founded modern Satanism. Similar to the famous occult man Alistair Crowley. Most famous for the line "Do what thou wilt" in Thelema.

Both are questionable in terms of what they practiced.

I highly doubt he was into the manipulative magic that we do.

Josh
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marko29

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Reply with quote  #44 
Devils or demons are not always evil entities. In some parts of Spain they have "the lame devil" (el diablo cojuelo) who far from being evil is rather a playful and mischievous character. He was of the first devils to rebel against god so he was also the first one cast down to earth with the result that all the other devils fell upon him and he was left lame. He was so annoying to the other devils that they gave him to an astrologer who sealed him inside a bottle.

The Lame Devil is the most mentioned entity in witches invocations and prayers, at least in old Spain. This was a very popular character and was considered a messenger of love. Even as late as the 17th century one could find in Spain invocations like:

Estos cinco dedos pongo en este muro, cinco demonios conjuro: a Barrabás, a Satanás, a Lucifer, a Belcebú, al Diablo Cojuelo que es buen mensajero, que me traiga a Fulano luego a mi querer y a mi mandar.

Which means: These five fingers I place on this wall, five demons I conjure: Barrabas, Satan, Lucifer, Belcebub, the Limp Devil who is a good messenger, that he brings me so and so to my will and command. (Inatead of "so and so" one inserted the name of the coveted one).

Spanish writer Luis Vélez de Guevara wrote in 1641 his novel "El Diablo Cojuelo" (The Lame Devil) in which a student frees the devil from the bottle where he was a prisoner and to repay him the favor, the Lame Devil takes the student on a night tour of the city of Madrid, lifting the roofs of the different houses and showing the virtues and vices of the inhabitants.  In 1770 French writer Alain-Rene Le Sage wrote his novel "Le Diable Boiteux" inspired by Veléz' original. This was later translated and adapted into English by the poet Tobias Smollett.

In magic we have Eliaser Bamberg (1760-1833) the first know member of the famous Bamberg Dynasty. He lost one of his legs fighting against the French as a navy gunner. Due to his dexterity in magic he was nicknamed "Le Diable Boiteux", that is, "The Lame Devil".
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SamtheNotasBadasIWas

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Reply with quote  #45 
That folklore from Spain may have something to do with the Arab conquest of the Iberian Pennisula, that character you describe sounds a lot like Djinn, or perhaps it is a cultural leftover from Spain's pre-Christian past, much like how Christmas Trees are cultural leftovers from Germany's pre-Christian past, and not an official part of the religion.
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marko29

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Reply with quote  #46 
You have a very good point here.
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Paco Nagata

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Reply with quote  #47 
"The lame devil" has to do with "the fallen angel," whose concept takes part of the Arab culture as well.

The thing is that only magicians (wizards and witches) could deal with devils and angels.

It seems pretty obvious that magic and religion were very related, at least in ancient times.

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John Cowne

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Reply with quote  #48 
A thought on this theme, taking the story-line of Robert Louis Stevenson’s ‘The Bottle Imp’. Premise: An imp in an unbreakable bottle brings wishes to anyone who buys the bottle. The catch is, anyone who dies in possession of the bottle has his soul taken by the devil. So, the trick is for every owner to sell the bottle before he dies. The second ‘catch’ is that he must sell it for less than he bought it. I’m sure you see the dilemma. Where in the world do you find someone who would buy it when you are down to the world’s lowest currency denomination? This has to be an intriguing, tense story being ‘enacted’ by a progressively disappearing coin routine. I’ve got goose bumps thinking about it. I wouldn't be surprised if this hasn't already been done, and someone knows about it here.
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SamtheNotasBadasIWas

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Reply with quote  #49 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paco Nagata
"The lame devil" has to do with "the fallen angel," whose concept takes part of the Arab culture as well.

The thing is that only magicians (wizards and witches) could deal with devils and angels.

It seems pretty obvious that magic and religion were very related, at least in ancient times.


As far as I have been able to tell, religion and magic were the same things among pre-Christian religions, except for Buddhism. Of course, I am not an expert, so a blanket statement may be incorrect, but I think this is the case.

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marko29

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Reply with quote  #50 
This is, believe it not, the cover of an Spanish magic book written by a Catholic priest (Jesuit) who was also a magician: Javier Barcón Furundarena. (He was also a diver and during the Spanish Civil War he was a fighter pilot on the Facist air force). The book was published in 1945. But the interesting thing here is that the cover of a magic book written by a priest contains a devil, a witch, a skeleton, a ghost, bats, an "evil" looking wizard and a cauldron with toads and a dragon... The whole repertoire of "demonic" lore!!!

Also: the book publisher was a Catholic editorial house: The Messenger of Jesus' Hearth (El mensajero del corazón de Jesús).

What do we make of this? It might be that in that time, Catholics didn't think much of the Devil? Or it might be that for Spaniards the Devil is/was only a source of merriment? There are several popular celebrations around Spain where they have "devils" that dance and do other types of cavorting creating fun and mirth for all. In my own country (Panama) we have popular folkloric dances with devil's playing the castanets, no doubt part of our Spanish heritage.
barcon.jpg 

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