Sign up Latest Topics Chat
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
Jack Bear

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 5
Reply with quote  #1 
.
0
Harry Lorayne

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 2,181
Reply with quote  #2 
The way you describe doing the HF I taught in one (or more) of my books decades ago.
0
Mike Powers

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,770
Reply with quote  #3 
John Cornelius had an idea for the force of the bottom card. He'd pull a small packet from the bottom onto his LH and flash the bottom card of the RH packet. He'd repeat this several time, each time showing a different bottom card. The force card remained on the bottom since the order of the deck hasn't changed. Then he'd go into the HS Force of the bottom card, having shown that the card changes each time. 

Mike
0
JohnnyNewYork

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 238
Reply with quote  #4 
Jack - I’ve been toying with a slightly different approach to the HS force (probably explored before, I’m sure). I begin with a tabled deck as if to Riffle Shuffle (forcing the bottom card, which I’’ve secretly peeked earlier). With RH, I pull/slide out the bottom 2/3's of deck, but instead of completing a cut and simply placing it on top of the remaining tabled cards, I perform a series of running cuts with only a few cards each time (as a very small group of cards) off of the TOP of the RH packet -- actually the packet is more or less held stationary in the LH and the RH pulls/slides 2/3's of the bottom cards of the packet away, leaving the LH to drop the remaining small group of cards it is holding onto the tabled portion of the tabled deck. I do this rather deliberately - I want everyone to see that cards are being pulled off of the TOP of the packet in my RH. When the spec says “stop”, my LH casually pulls out a few cards from the BOTTOM of the RH packet and shows the face of the packet held in my LH to the spec (the force card) as my my RH moves its packet away, mimicking the previous motion of the running cuts (it should appear as if I've just pulled another small group of cards off of the top of the packet).  I then drop the LH packet on top of the tabled cards, finally dropping the remaining cards in the RH on top of everything. The force card is lost in the deck, but I know what it is and continue from there. I guess it is a “tabled” HS force, but I feel a little more confident using this approach. Hope my description makes sense - good luck - johnny
0
MagicTK

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 259
Reply with quote  #5 
I like that description Jack.  I will have to apply this next time I use the HS for a force.

It's better than the way I typically do it which is, with the card on the top and flip the deck over, taking small groups of cards off so they see the faces of many cards.  Then they say stop whenever they want, and then flip over the RH pack so they take the top card.  So far I've gotten away with it, but I like this variation.

Johnny's description is very good too.

Tom
0
Bulla

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 200
Reply with quote  #6 
I actually really like the hindu force and I use Slydini's handling of it 
0
Bob Farmer

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 235
Reply with quote  #7 
Bulla: That looks great. It really sells the idea that the card is from the middle of the deck.

The force I use the most, because it is so versatile, is my variation of Gary Ouellet’s “Touch Force.”

The card to be forced is on the bottom of the deck.

Cut about a third of the deck to the bottom and hold a break with the left little finger.

Spread the cards into the right hand, still holding the break.

Ask the spectator to touch (not take) any card. Use your left thumb to indicate the selection (“That one?”) but then use it to tap the cards on either side (“Or do you want that one or that one?”). Or you can ask him to say, “Stop,” as you spread the cards.

As soon as a card is decided upon, injog it and square the deck sideways into your left hand as you simultaneously push the injog square and cut at the break raising the broken cards to show the bottom card (the force card).

 

0
Mike Powers

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,770
Reply with quote  #8 
Bob - I thought the card was outjogged?? Then you can begin to push everything above the break forward a bit as you square the outjogged card with the right fingers and continue forward, ultimately raising the packet to show the bottom card.

Mike
0
Anthony Vinson

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member - Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 2,260
Reply with quote  #9 
Hmm, same here, Mike. He did say it was his variation, and while it does work beautifully, it does seem strange to me to injog, rather than outjog, the selection. Perhaps Bob will pop back in to 'splain his reasoning.

I haven't used the Hindu shuffle force in years. My favorite is John Bannon's Christ Cross Force. It's a beauty. Either top or bottom cards can be easily forced, and the handling is so fair-looking and deceptive that it still sometimes fools me.

Av
0
RayJ

Avatar / Picture

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 894
Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Farmer
Bulla: That looks great. It really sells the idea that the card is from the middle of the deck.

The force I use the most, because it is so versatile, is my variation of Gary Ouellet’s “Touch Force.”

The card to be forced is on the bottom of the deck.

Cut about a third of the deck to the bottom and hold a break with the left little finger.

Spread the cards into the right hand, still holding the break.

Ask the spectator to touch (not take) any card. Use your left thumb to indicate the selection (“That one?”) but then use it to tap the cards on either side (“Or do you want that one or that one?”). Or you can ask him to say, “Stop,” as you spread the cards.

As soon as a card is decided upon, injog it and square the deck sideways into your left hand as you simultaneously push the injog square and cut at the break raising the broken cards to show the bottom card (the force card).

Yes, this is a great force.  John Carey posted a tabled "Touch Force" variation using a breather the other day.  Worth looking at as it is similar but different.

 

0
Michaelblue

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,167
Reply with quote  #11 
As for the hindu shuffle force, i do it like a running cut. Force card on t he bottom and you do a running cut and ask someone to say stop. When they do, you stop and show them the card on the bottom of the top half and just place the halves together.
Hope that makes sense.
0
Michaelblue

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,167
Reply with quote  #12 
As for the hindu shuffle force, i do it like a running cut. Force card on t he bottom and you do a running cut and ask someone to say stop. When they do, you stop and show them the card on the bottom of the top half and just place the halves together.
Hope that makes sense.
0
Bob Farmer

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 235
Reply with quote  #13 
Here's why the injog is better: it prevents the audience from catching an accidental flash of the card. This can happen if you are standing and the audience is sitting. Gary Ouellet preferred this version to his original. You can also do this with the cards face up to switch a card.

The other advantage of this force is you can not only force a card but a force a card with a different back color than the deck. This is particularly deceptive because they touch the back of, say, a blue card in a blue deck but get the force card which has a different colored back. I've used this a lot.


0
Anthony Vinson

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member - Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 2,260
Reply with quote  #14 
Thanks, Bob, for the clarification. I'm going to play around with the concept.

Av
0
Robin Dawes

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,281
Reply with quote  #15 
Outjog vs. injog ... I suspect that to non-magicians the difference is neglible.  There's nothing inherently more suspicious about injogs - the performer's level of tension is far more likely to ring warning bells.
0
Anthony Vinson

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member - Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 2,260
Reply with quote  #16 
Fair point, Robin. It's hard not to think like a magician sometimes! At least for me.

Av
0
Bob Farmer

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 235
Reply with quote  #17 
I've used this a lot and no one has ever questioned the procedure. I think it's because you give them options on which card they want.
0
Mike Powers

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,770
Reply with quote  #18 
Thanks Bob! I'll try out the injog method. 


Mike
0
RayJ

Avatar / Picture

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 894
Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Dawes
Outjog vs. injog ... I suspect that to non-magicians the difference is neglible.  There's nothing inherently more suspicious about injogs - the performer's level of tension is far more likely to ring warning bells.



Robin, I agree and I would go further and state that in reality, from the spectator's point of view, the card is UPJOGGED, so to them it probably looks normal.
0
RayJ

Avatar / Picture

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 894
Reply with quote  #20 
Jack, I think we totally understood what you were saying.  The classic Hindu force is still effective for most spectators, especially if you shuffle first.  They don't know you can secretly glimpse the bottom card.  And most spectators think when you cut the deck you are mixing the entire thing up.  Remember, as you point out, they DON'T know what you are going to do.  So when they say stop, you could give them the TOP card.  Or you could give them a choice of the top or bottom, they don't know.  You certainly could do it that way and if they choose the bottom, continue on.  If they choose the top, then complete the cut and you know their card is under the sighted card.

You have to know your audience.  If they are used to watching magic, then the HSF is probably not the best choice. 

I don't think the method is absurd.  Certainly not the best force, but not absurd. 

Since there are 1001 ways to force a card, choose another.
0
rready

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 608
Reply with quote  #21 
I posted this in another thread which is another variation of the Touch Force.
0
rready

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 608
Reply with quote  #22 
0
Bob Farmer

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 235
Reply with quote  #23 
Not crazy about that variation--it looks jerky, too many moves, not smooth. 
0
Bulla

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 200
Reply with quote  #24 
To be fair they're teaching it straight out of Royal Road. I agree completely that it isn't the "ideal" way to handle the force but at the same time I don't think it's insulting a person's intelligence. You have to keep in mind the area that you're from. In the western world most people are unfamiliar with a Hindu shuffle. I'm from Hawaii and it's very culturally diverse here so the Hindu shuffle is actually quite common. But in most other states it's not a shuffle that is seen often which is why it tends to work more than it should.
0
RayJ

Avatar / Picture

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 894
Reply with quote  #25 
Jack, I think you made your point. This is a friendly forum. We don't challenge opinions here. You've expressed yours clearly and some disagree as is their right.

Time to move on. The HSF and its effectiveness isn't worth this much scrutiny, IMO.
0
RayJ

Avatar / Picture

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 894
Reply with quote  #26 
Jack, it boils down to tone. You seem really passionate about this to the point of " being prepared to put your money where your mouth is." That comes off as an unecessary challenge. Many of us here are either working professionals or former pros. We get your point.

There are much better forces than the traditional HSF. Even the modified one you mentioned. At the end of the day folks use what works for them.
0
RayJ

Avatar / Picture

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 894
Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Bear
RayJ

You've made several comments in here that have been negative and slightly hostile towards me. It appears that you have elected yourself as chairman of this thread. I'm enjoying exchanging thoughts and ideas with other users in this thread, and could well do without your constant bickering. If you don't like what is being said in this topic, then please just go elsewhere, ... why do you keep coming back here?

Jack.


I think I'll hang around thank you.
0
Anthony Vinson

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member - Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 2,260
Reply with quote  #28 
Hey, guys, let's lighten up, huh? Opinions are always welcome, vitriol, not so much. Thanks.

Av
0
magicfish

Honored Member - Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 1,367
Reply with quote  #29 
The handling in the clip above could be executed after a couple centre Hindus. Do a centre hindu, stop, show the bottom card . Do another quick one. Show a different bottom card.
They see that the bottom card is different each time- now let's try it for real, and into the traditional hindu force .
0
rready

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 608
Reply with quote  #30 
I just picked up on eBay Lewis Jones Encyclopedia of Impromptu Forces. Can't wait to dig into that.
0
culldavid

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 95
Reply with quote  #31 
Here is an easy force which i use sometimes.I will put an explanation in the session room also although it is quite eady to work out.
Thankyou



0
trinimontes

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 262
Reply with quote  #32 
Force card starts on the bottom (face) of the deck. Hindu Shuffle face down until spectator says "stop". In one motion, right hand moves forward in front of the left hand packet. The left second finger (middle finger) contacts the face of the force card and holds it in place as the right hand moves back and places its packet flush on top of the left hand packet. This cause the force card to remain outogged and gives the impression that it is coming from the center of the deck. Have spectator remove card and look at it, and conclude effect as needed.

This is, I think, a Jack Avis idea from his book Vis-A-Vis. Let me know if you are unable to follow my description and I'll see about making a video of it.




Best,
Trini
0
magicfish

Honored Member - Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 1,367
Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trinimontes
Force card starts on the bottom (face) of the deck. Hindu Shuffle face down until spectator says "stop". In one motion, right hand moves forward in front of the left hand packet. The left second finger (middle finger) contacts the face of the force card and holds it in place as the right hand moves back and places its packet flush on top of the left hand packet. This cause the force card to remain outogged and gives the impression that it is coming from the center of the deck. Have spectator remove card and look at it, and conclude effect as needed.

This is, I think, a Jack Avis idea from his book Vis-A-Vis. Let me know if you are unable to follow my description and I'll see about making a video of it.




Best,
Trini

Great stuff, Trini. Thanks very much for sharing this. 
0
Gilles

Avatar / Picture

Member
Registered:
Posts: 38
Reply with quote  #34 
Trini, the description is crystal clear, but what is the benefit of using the second finger, which lies on the side of the pack, instead of the first finger, which is exactly where you need it to be to upjog the "choosen" card?? There must be a reason, but I can't think of one...
0
trinimontes

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 262
Reply with quote  #35 
Sorry it took so long, but here is the demonstration and explanation of the Hindu Shuffle Force as explained in the Jack Avis book Vis-A-Vis.

0
trinimontes

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 262
Reply with quote  #36 
Gilles,
There is nothing keeping you from using the first finger. I am merely explaining the way I remember it being described in the Avis book, and this is the way I perform it if I were to use the Hindu Shuffle Force. Keep in mind that the move flows with the shuffle itself. I may not have done it justice in the video, for my hands were dry, and it is also late at night, but I can re-shoot the video if you would like me to so you can see how it flows with the natural motion of the shuffle and assembly of the deck.



Best,
Trini
0
Gilles

Avatar / Picture

Member
Registered:
Posts: 38
Reply with quote  #37 
Trini, the video is perfectly clear and definitely states your point; it's just a choice between the card spreading at an angle or in  alignment with the deck.
I don't use this force often, but nice tip anyway, thanks!
0
BlackMoon

Avatar / Picture

Member
Registered:
Posts: 9
Reply with quote  #38 
Jack, Harry L’s method is also taught in Card College.
__________________
“It’s always something.”
0
Harry Lorayne

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 2,181
Reply with quote  #39 
      As are many...so I'm told.
0
Harry Lorayne

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 2,181
Reply with quote  #40 
   So are many - I'm told.
0
Blathermist

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,063
Reply with quote  #41 
Welcome home Mister L.
0
Anthony Vinson

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member - Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 2,260
Reply with quote  #42 
Hey, Harry! Welcome back, sir!

Av
0
magicfish

Honored Member - Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 1,367
Reply with quote  #43 
Glad to hear from you Harry!
0
RayJ

Avatar / Picture

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 894
Reply with quote  #44 
Welcome back Harry!  
0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.