Sign up Latest Topics Chat
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
JenniferG

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 632
Reply with quote  #1 
I've been trying this.  Seems impossible.  I don't see how I can get the card pulled back into palm position.  It sticks out! LOL

Here's Bill Malone doing it @ 1:08 minutes in:


Screen Shot 2020-09-16 at 10.23.35 PM.png 

Screen Shot 2020-09-16 at 10.24.15 PM.png

0
JenniferG

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 632
Reply with quote  #2 
I figured it was okay to share the images since it is public domain. Correct me if I'm wrong.
0
RayJ

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 4,003
Reply with quote  #3 
The card isn't really in a typical Palm, but rather a "thumb Palm" and only for a split second. It happened so fast there is nothing to see really. He ditches it in one smooth motion. There is perhaps a half second between placing the card down and ditching.

Notice how animated he is and how he gets everyone laughing. That's part of his mastery.
0
JenniferG

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 632
Reply with quote  #4 
There really are a lot of hidden gems in all the old magic books right?  I mean if you search on this sleight you really don't see anyone doing tutorials on it.  And to me it's one of the most amazing things πŸ˜‹. I've never seen anything like it before.
0
MarekT

Member
Registered:
Posts: 32
Reply with quote  #5 
Hi Jennifer 

Yes you are right there are hidden gems. The Arthur Buckley book is sometimes overlooked by people but has a lot of great sleights in it πŸ˜‰ I haven't tried this sleight so can't get my opinion on it and as Ray said Bill is great with the audience so even if there would be any discrepency it would not be noticed πŸ˜‰ 
0
RayJ

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 4,003
Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JenniferG
There really are a lot of hidden gems in all the old magic books right?  I mean if you search on this sleight you really don't see anyone doing tutorials on it.  And to me it's one of the most amazing things πŸ˜‹. I've never seen anything like it before.


People have a tendency to think newer is better.  One of the "problems" with some who learn from the internet is that they are never exposed to certain books, plots or sleights.

They tend to learn what is trendy, following the "buzz".  They really aren't students in my opinion until they get serious and begin investing in books and DVDs.  That is my opinion, feel free to disagree.  I'm entrenched in my beliefs and while I can appreciate that some get help from tutorials, I still see it mainly as a negative.  For every positive aspect I can name several negative ones just as easily.  So I'm in the "old timer" camp I guess.

Take ACAAN.  If you watch the literally thousands of videos on the web you'd think it was some new idea yet it was conceived before most of the folks that hangout online were born.
It just became popular all of the sudden.  

0
JenniferG

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 632
Reply with quote  #7 
Asi Wind added a lot to the ACAAN plot with his box shift which is quite unique / different from the rest.  Maybe he had a lot to do with the revival of it I dunno.  I never heard about ACAAN until I came here and found out that is what DB did ont eh morning show with Asi WInd's box sleight.  I had never heard of Asi before I came here.
0
RayJ

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 4,003
Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JenniferG
Asi Wind added a lot to the ACAAN plot with his box shift which is quite unique / different from the rest.  Maybe he had a lot to do with the revival of it I dunno.  I never heard about ACAAN until I came here and found out that is what DB did ont eh morning show with Asi WInd's box sleight.  I had never heard of Asi before I came here.


David Berglas is generally identified as one that brought the plot into the mainstream of discussion with his 'Berglas Effect'.
0
JenniferG

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 632
Reply with quote  #9 
Yep.  And of course Asi credits him.
0
JenniferG

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 632
Reply with quote  #10 

You said "It's just become popular all of a sudden".  Well you can probably thank David Blaine πŸ˜‰   Who of course uses Asi's sleight.

0
JenniferG

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 632
Reply with quote  #11 
It's more than just ACAAN.. it's Asi Wind's ACAAN.. a different trick.  I haven't seen a better box sleight. I've seen Kronzek's, Ackerman's, Born's and others.

It's powerful when you just dump the shuffled cards out of the box, into the spectators hands and they count and it is there.. without you appearing to have done a single thing.
0
JenniferG

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 632
Reply with quote  #12 

Asi Wind's box sleight was so good, John Born made up a second, new box sleight using Asi's ideas called Flip Shift.  I bought Flip Shift book and flipped through it.  I still like Asi's better.   John Born also made modifications to his old box sleight in Flip Shfit, using ideas he got from Asi.  (John Born credits Asi Wind in the Flip Shift book and says without Asi Wind's box sleight, Flip Shift would have not come into fruition; of course I could see why because the start of the box setup is identical to what Asi does.)

John Born wrote an entire book on the ACAAAN plot as you know "Meant to Be".  He has guest chapters of both Kronizek and Allan Ackerman sharing how they did it.  Of course the first thing he talks about is Berglas Effect.

So this guy that wrote an entire book on the plot, has all the box sleights in it -- his, Ackerman's & Kronzek's -- yet still later.. modified his using Asi Wind's ideas. 

So Asi in my opinion is a big part of this plot, and he's a younger guy.  And his ideas are fresh.  And his box sleight is a great utility for any memdeck routine where you did to do a covert shift up front.  I use it for all sorts of these routines in addition to AWACAAN:  my UltraMental, What's the Catch?, Valleity, etc..

0
RayJ

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 4,003
Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JenniferG

You said "It's just become popular all of a sudden".  Well you can probably thank David Blaine πŸ˜‰   Who of course uses Asi's sleight.



It was very popular before Blaine did it on TV.
0
JenniferG

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 632
Reply with quote  #14 

Yeah, Born wrote "Meant to Be" in what 2006?   So it must of been.  I think DB started doing memdeck magic 2009 or after? Anyways, it's all new to me. All of it.  Been doing magic for 14 months.   

Did Berglas write any good books on methods to achieve his effect?  I've seen some video clips of him and some of it was impossible.  Don't know if it was luck that allowed him to pull it off sometimes there on the video.  I also saw one performance he did which wasn't the greatest -- he made the spectator change cards and he just did a shift right out in the open.

Allan Ackerman wrote Al Cardphone in 1996, where he goes over his box sleight and several different ways to do the ACAAN.  I'm sure there are other authors way before Allan.

Quoting you from above:
"Take ACAAN.  If you watch the literally thousands of videos on the web you'd think it was some new idea yet it was conceived before most of the folks that hangout online were born. It just became popular all of the sudden."

I thought maybe it became more popular all of a sudden because people started watching David Blaine do it, because he's really popular.  I dunno.  Asi's idea is a relatively new idea though and that's the one DB uses.  I think most of the youtube videos I've seen regarding ACAAN, say the plot goes way back and credit Berglas etc.

0
RayJ

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 4,003
Reply with quote  #15 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Berglas

The book is called 'The Berglas Effects' and was written and published by Richard Kaufman. It contains other effects as well.
He doesn't have one method, but a host of principles that can be brought to bear.

Keep in mind an individual performance can suffer when compared to others. The fact he did a shift might have been noticed by yourself while flying past the spectators. I can't comment having not seen it.

He began doing ACAAN in the 1950s.
0
Mike Powers

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 2,546
Reply with quote  #16 
I think the interest in memorized deck work due to the influence of Aronson, Close and Tamariz might be responsible for the resurgence of interest in ACAAN. Asi's method is very pure. Any card is named and then the spectator can count to the number. 

M
0
Rick Franceschini

Member
Registered:
Posts: 38
Reply with quote  #17 
The Throw Change is a lovely move and was a specialty of Eddie Fechter's.  The move was originated by Jack Merlin, who designed it to throw the card upon the ground.  I think Buckley was responsible for the table top concept.  I thought a quick movie would help you see the move better.  In isolation...


0
Jack Deschain

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 64
Reply with quote  #18 
The Throw Change is also very similar to an old muck called "the Chop." From my understanding it was commonly used in blackjack.

The one big difference is the cards don't actually leave the table. It's more of a push/pull sliding action on the table surface. It can be used as a one-for-one switch or to steal one of two cards.
0
JenniferG

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 632
Reply with quote  #19 
Very nice! Thank you for that video Rick and the history!  Wow you are amazing at that!  I can only hope I can learn it and be that good πŸ˜‰
0
Mike Powers

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 2,546
Reply with quote  #20 
Very nice Rick. Looks great.

M
0
JenniferG

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 632
Reply with quote  #21 
Allan Ackerman told me that The Throw Change was a favorite of the great Jimmy Grippo and has seen him do it several times. (Allan said Grippo has performed for presidents etc..) Allan says he's sessioned with Bill Malone about 5 or 6 times.  Allan learned from Marlo in 1967-69.  Malone learned from Marlo in the mid 70's.  Chicago seemed to be a happening place!  Mike, were you from Chicago as well?  When did you learn from Marlo?  Did you meet Bill Malone there when you both learned from Marlo?
0
JenniferG

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 632
Reply with quote  #22 
Rick, I don't know how you and Bill Malone do it.  I try to do it and I toss the top card to the table fine but I can't seem to retract the bottom card far enough with thumb, it still sticks out past fingers [frown] bleh.  
0
RayJ

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 4,003
Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Franceschini
The Throw Change is a lovely move and was a specialty of Eddie Fechter's.  The move was originated by Jack Merlin, who designed it to throw the card upon the ground.  I think Buckley was responsible for the table top concept.  I thought a quick movie would help you see the move better.  In isolation...




Buckley describes using it in a card under shoe effect, he bends down and throws it on the ground.
0
Rick Franceschini

Member
Registered:
Posts: 38
Reply with quote  #24 
That's right Ray, thanks.  

Jennifer, when I showed the card(s) note that it was show in a thumb palm position.  Figure 2 above shows the card(s) being placed right into thumb palm.  When the fingers shoot out two things happen.  First, the upper card flies away, second - the fingers cover the thumb palmed card.  IF you can thumb palm a card and hide it behind extended fingers, THEN YOU CAN DO THIS MOVE with almost no cover.  If a bit of the card flashes from the front, remember that their eyes are on the flying card, which means you could get back to the deck in time enough and unload the card.  In this move the right hand races back to the deck to cool off, the misdirection is the moving card.  Buckley's reference to the palmed card is a thumb palm.  Buckley gives us value with quantity at the price of brevity.  

Also, try "Buckley's Reverse," page 39.  It is a wonderful way of secretly reversing cards under the cover of a shuffle.  The shuffle will feel unconventional and the process weird, but within 15 to 20 minutes of exploring, it begins to grow on you, see if it is so.
0
JenniferG

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 632
Reply with quote  #25 
Wow, thanks so much Rick, I am gonna journal this all.  Including the reverse you talk about!  Will definitely check it out!
0
JenniferG

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 632
Reply with quote  #26 
I was talking to a gentleman, Jefrey Neuavaux, online from a FB group, who has been doing card magic for decades like many of you all.  He said his mentor was Marlo and that he knew Dai Vernon, Derek Dingle and many other card magicians.  He said Derek Dingle hands down was the best card handler there was.   I just watched my first Derek Dingle video and interestingly he does The Throw Change in it, along with the funny "select a card" move that Bill Malone did at the start of the video in post #1 here.
0
JenniferG

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 632
Reply with quote  #27 
I suppose it would of helped if I gave the link to the Derek Dingle video I was referring to in previous post:

0
RayJ

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 4,003
Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JenniferG
I was talking to a gentleman, Jefrey Neuavaux, online from a FB group, who has been doing card magic for decades like many of you all.  He said his mentor was Marlo and that he knew Dai Vernon, Derek Dingle and many other card magicians.  He said Derek Dingle hands down was the best card handler there was.   I just watched my first Derek Dingle video and interestingly he does The Throw Change in it, along with the funny "select a card" move that Bill Malone did at the start of the video in post #1 here.


Opinions are a funny thing.  Take Derek Dingle, for example, and you will find folks on two sides of the fence when it comes to his abilities.  Some of the reason might be because there was a period of time when he was very, very good and later in life, whether from age, or perhaps personal challenges, his skills definitely diminished.  I don't like to repeat personal things about people, but I've read enough to know that his health wasn't the greatest.  

There is also the difference between having seen someone live and watching them on video.
Anyone that has seen a top pro in person can tell you that they impact of their magic is far greater when viewed live and up-close.  So much is lost once the performance is confined to film or tape.  It just is.

So I take comments about who was the greatest with a grain of salt, knowing that many of us never got to see some of these magicians at all, much less live and probably not at the height of their powers.

I'm not trying to diminish the memories of the person that said that about Derek, no, far from it.  I'm just suggesting that conditions make all the difference.

At one time Derek was said to have one of the greatest passes of all time.  Maybe he did, but I have yet to see a video of him where I couldn't spot it immediately.  What does that mean?  Not much.  Like I said, maybe I didn't see him at his best and perhaps if I had been there live I wouldn't have noticed it because of misdirection, etc.  Who knows?  That's the whole point.  Who knows?
0
RayJ

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 4,003
Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JenniferG
Rick, I don't know how you and Bill Malone do it.  I try to do it and I toss the top card to the table fine but I can't seem to retract the bottom card far enough with thumb, it still sticks out past fingers [frown] bleh.  


Jennifer, I think you are doing the move and then stopping to look at your hand and you see some leakage and think something is wrong.  There's nothing wrong.  In performance, the hand never stops but goes directly to the top of the pack.  Done in one motion, no hesitation and with emphasis on the card you just placed on the table, floor or into their hand, it will fly.

Have you seen the move where you cut a packet to the table and then return to the hand to cut off another packet while carrying a block of cards back up to the hand?  The name of the move escapes me now.  But the reason it works and nobody sees it is because you don't stop, you just drop half the packet, carry the other half back up and put it on top of the cards that are already there.  Of course if you hesitate or stop at any point in the motion they are going to see that you have a block of cards in your hand.  

This move is similar.  Notice how fast Derek ditches the card.  It is literally a fraction of a second and all eyes are on the card he laid on the table.
0
JenniferG

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 632
Reply with quote  #30 
I watched Dingle in slow motion at 25% speed.  I zero'd in on his right hand after the Throw Change, still couldn't see it πŸ˜‰

Btw, I couldn't see his classic pass at all.. not really even at 25%.. he's very fast with it.. CLICK.
0
Mike Powers

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 2,546
Reply with quote  #31 
Didn't really like Dingle's technique on the Throw Change. Too brisk. Doesn't look natural to me. I think Malone's technique is much better. With Dingle, it seemed that the card was hot and burning his hand and he needed to get rid of it ASAP. "Begone hot card!"

Also, his pass looked bad. He even tried to compensate for a bad pass by saying, "Actually I just cut the deck." 

M
0
JenniferG

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 632
Reply with quote  #32 
His pass looked bad? It was totally concealed and insanely fast.  They always click.
0
JenniferG

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 632
Reply with quote  #33 
He did that pass lightning fast.  I haven't see ya all do the pass.  WOuld be fun to see ya guys.  I of course can't even do it properly in slow motion.
0
Mike Powers

Avatar / Picture

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 2,546
Reply with quote  #34 
It was indeed a fast pass. But anyone watching would wonder "what did he just do?" It was far from invisible. Check Howie Schwartzman's pass or Bill Kalush. There's no huge tell. Ken Krenzel's pass was like greased lightning and he had huge hands to help the cause. But the tension in his hands and body just as he wound up in readiness to execute the move were a big tell. A lay person would have to wonder what all that tension was about? "Is he doing something..." The goal is to not have any tell whatsoever. 

With proper misdirection like getting the spec to look into your eyes, you can get away with a substandard pass i.e. one that really can't be burned without a spec wondering what you just did.

As always, these are just my opinions. But I'd bet money that any layperson burning the pass on the Dingle video would know something strange just happened.

Dingle says, "Actually I just cut the deck really quickly." To me that means that he knew they saw "something" and decided that it was better to just be honest than have them feel that they busted him. 

M


0
Gareth

Honored Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,036
Reply with quote  #35 
I everyone. Just thought I’d share Hudson Taylor’s version has to be amongst the best variants. Not an easy move though

0
JenniferG

Inner Circle
Registered:
Posts: 632
Reply with quote  #36 

Wanna see a bad pass? lol. It's at 2:10 minutes in.  1st off bad camera angle!

0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.