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Paco Nagata

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I have been all my amateur (card) magic life listening to (card) magician hobbyist mates that such and such movements, shuffles, forces, counts, card turning over, body positions, etc, are not natural or less natural than others...

So, I have been always thinking about the concept of naturalness in the art of magic until I came up with a personal thought about it:

“Anything can be natural since naturalness can be created.”

So, instead of just saying “I don’t like that move, force, false shuffling or count… because it seems unnatural,” I reckon that we should consider them and perform them precisely to turn them into a natural move! In other words, if you never perform those moves they would never become natural in the magic field for our spectators.

It’s normal that spectators suspect of handlings that they don’t usually see, but we can make them to get used to those unusual moves to look natural in a magician’s handling. Magicians are supposed to be elegant on stage. For example:

I’ve heard many mates saying that Derek Dingle’s “double turn over” is unnatural hence it would be better not to use it (not very much). Well… it’s unnatural if you don’t use it! So, the solution would be just the opposite; using it as much as possible! It would look like unnatural if you do it only once in your life, but if you use it often you can make your spectator consider it just an elegant handling as a magician. Nobody sees that move unconvincing in David Blaine’s hands, simple because he does it often! So, I think that we shouldn’t run away from moves because they look like “unnatural,” but try them often if we find them useful for our methods.

Others usually say that some false counts like Hamman, Rhumba… are unnatural. Well, I reckon that they look like unnatural only because they are just DIFFERENT, but it doesn’t mean that they can’t become natural. They can be used as well as an elegant way to count or show some cards, or even as a purpose to make it clearer for the spectators. So, it depends on how the spectators take it.

How about the Riffle Shuffle Force? What do you think?

One of the premises about unnaturalness is:

Why to do such a thing if you can do such another thing? So, why to do the riffle shuffle force if you can do the classic force? 

Well… why not to ask the same question but opposite?!

If you use the riffle force as much as the classic force, both of them will look like a natural way of having a card selected. In addition, notice that we magicians see the riffle force unnatural just because we (almost?) always use it to force a card, but spectators have no reason to see it neither unnatural nor suspicious since they are not supposed to know what “a break” is! 

The same happens with different ways of shuffling and cutting if you do it often as alternative ways of handling the deck of cards with the purpose of making it elegant and beautiful, or just different for a change.

Nevertheless, I reckon that we must be careful as well with doing some movements too fast or unclear, since obviously that will be the part in which spectators would suspect. So, the thing would be to make it different/varied, but clear.

Was it unnatural the way Slydini used to sit down for “The Helicopter Card” routine? I don’t think so. It was just different.

The last time I performed card magic in secret for some card magic mates, one of them told me: “That’s seem unnatural.” My answer was: “Absolutely; a magician doing magic for magicians is quite unnatural.”

What do you think about naturalness in magic?

What does exactly mean “Naturalness” in magic?


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Bob Farmer

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Reply with quote  #2 
To me naturalness means anything that the audience will accept as plausible in the context of the trick you are doing. 
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Magic Harry

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Reply with quote  #3 
Very impressive post. It looks like you put a lot of thought into this subject with some plausible solutions to naturalness in magic. If you do a move whether you need it or not like as you mentioned, the classic or shuffle force it will become more natural.
I like your point about what is naturalness to a spectator. To me anything about magic is not natural. So to have cards cut, shuffled and chosen in a performance or the handling of coins or any prop can be done with a flourish of style and pannash. Call it "showmanship". it should be entertaining.
Just my 2 cents.
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Mike Powers

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Reply with quote  #4 
First of all, a move isn't natural or unnatural in and of itself. Although there are probably exceptions to this maxim i.e. moves that look bogus in everyone's hands.

I think the yardstick for whether or not a move is natural (in a particular person's hands) is whether the audience detects subterfuge. If the "he just did something" light goes off in the brains of the audience, the move wasn't "natural." Maybe the magician just needs to work on the move to make it pass muster. Or maybe the move is inherently "unnatural" i.e. it draws attention to itself and makes many in the audience think that you just did "something."

This analysis is far from perfect. But maybe it can be of help in deciding what "naturalness" means. 

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luvisi

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Reply with quote  #5 
I feel someone should mention Darwin Ortiz's discussion of naturalness, motivation, and economy of motion on pages 266 through 268 of Strong Magic.

Consider it mentioned.

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Paco Nagata

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Reply with quote  #6 
Magic Harry, any "2 cents" in this Forum are worth "2 grands" for me!
Thanks for you feedback.
Bob Farmer wrote a good definition about what "naturalness" may mean in the context of "magic." Thank you!
Mike Powers stated that a move can't be "natural" by itself. I agree with that. What is natural for me may not be for others. So, it depends on the performer, spectators, enviroment, habit, custom, even culture...
My conclusion was that we can create "naturalness" for our technical moves in order to carry them out without raising suspicions.
Luvisi, you mentioned a good reference on this subject. I've read Darwin Ortiz's book. Very recommendable!
My principal point on this is the concept of "creating naturalness" or "forcing naturalness" to try to "get by with anything."

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Bob Farmer

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Reply with quote  #7 

“For the purposes of poetry a convincing impossibility is preferable to an unconvincing possibility.”
Aristotle, Poetics 146b11

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Zero

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Reply with quote  #8 

I don't think Natural is really the best word for assessing how appropriate particular sleights are. natural implies it comes externally to you and naturalness is something that as others have correctly exerted, doesn't exist in card magic because without us to handle cards weirdly, there are no people handling cards this way, thus it's unnatural - we arent that definition in magic, it's not an automatic response to thumb riffle, and then quickly swivel out a center double face card, but one can make the process feel organic with enough effort.

As mike said - they're not this way in and of themselves, it's up to the performer to apply thought enough to give sleights a reason to exist.

congruence in so far as using sleights that match the performer's attitude, a lot of people use the classic force because it's a selection taken from a spread. the performer is probably already comfortable with spreading the cards and it's likely they're going to be more comfortable using this force as opposed to the tight small action of a riffle force. because some actions do stem from reasonably natural places like spreading or fanning, they appear to exist more congruently with a majority of people, it makes sense that people would feel more comfortable with actions more closely mimicked by participants because that gives them an inherent reason to exist. anything they do without instruction you're also allowed to do.

Organic is the word I prefer because it is a harmony between things, that should be between the actions and the performer and their environment, if you're able to false shuffle without thinking about it, shoulders relaxed, while having a conversation, that action feels organic and true because it is done so with all things taking place in harmony, you're comfortable with the actions, you're comfortable with the environment, the actions are yours and no one could be any the wiser because they have no inclination to believe that you're doing anything else because you are in a place where everything you're doing is open, honest and without contrivance towards "why" - which is often unanswered in actions that look out of place or inorganic - find the "why" and things will harmonize because they need places to connect to before they can connect.

While any action can be performed this is true, you have to answer the "why?" question first. not every sleight is equal and not all of them suit every performer equally either. "Why?" must be asked in order to understand why certain actions take place amongst others.

things to consider include; who has the card after the force? where is it after the force, do they have it, do I have it, does it matter? do I mimic these actions earlier/later? how would my character have someone select this card? does it make sense that they would do it this way? does it match the feeling the rest of the process has? why am I doing this action, is it motivated? does it highlight what I'm trying to emphasize in the effect/? is the sleight appropriate for the environment I'm going to be performing in? is it appropriate for my angles? does it only look fair from a certain direction? What does this sleight communicate and what feeling does it have?

the list is endless, but acknowledging these questions and answering them with the knowledge that not every sleight is for you (and you need to be harsh on yourself here, be honest, is this really something you're finding a connection with and does it actually suit you) and then placing them correctly into a sequence will do a lot to help that sleight be something that doesn't feel out of place. the better you understand why it's there and the better you build it into the world you're creating in an effect the more it will appear organically and in harmony with you and the effect around it.


my two cents at least. That reference to strong magic is also a great thing as listed above by Luvisi

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Paco Nagata

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Reply with quote  #9 
Another great "2 cents" Zero!
Thank you!
Maybe, from the point of view of spectators it is "Natural" (in a card magician),
whereas from the point of view of the magician it is "Organic."
Just a thought.

Sometimes it may be diffcult for a magician to understand spectators point of view about something.
For example, thinking about the "riffle force," the magician may find it suspicious because it's not the habitual way to have a card selected, however spectators may consider as well that the magician is just in hurry about having a card selected, or simply acting in an informal way.
In addition, if the magician remarks:
"let's get a card randomly,"
it would justify the riffle way.


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Socrates

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Reply with quote  #10 
Your state of mind is all important... Michael Weber once demonstrated this in a lecture. Our attitude is what convinces an audience, if we are calm, confident and act naturally this state of mind is projected to those watching.
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates
Your state of mind is all important... Michael Weber once demonstrated this in a lecture. Our attitude is what convinces an audience, if we are calm, confident and act naturally this state of mind is projected to those watching.


Great point. Harry Lorayne always talks about attitude. This goes hand-in-hand with Vernon's admonition about not making unimportant things important. Success is being able to weave several principles together to create a stronger whole.
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Paco Nagata

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Reply with quote  #12 
Definitely, acting calm, confident and with a natural state of mind is essential regarding making moves look like natural.
Thanks a lot for your point, Socrates!

And thanks a lot, Ray, for your ideal quotes of Harry Lorayne and Dai Vernon.
They fit perfectly with this concept.

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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #13 
From Paco's original post...

"I’ve heard many mates saying that Derek Dingle’s “double turn over” is unnatural hence it would be better not to use it (not very much). Well… it’s unnatural if you don’t use it! So, the solution would be just the opposite; using it as much as possible!"

There's a couple of things going on there.  First, I'm assuming that your "mates" are fellow magicians.  Othewise, they wouldn't be discussing technique on a double.

So what we have is their opinion of what looks natural.  They didn't say it wasn't an effective move, they didn't say it doesn't effectively hide the fact that there's two cards, they just didn't like the manner in which it is carried out.  I'm sure they are basing their opinion on something tangible, such as their personal experience.  When things like this happen I think it is fair to ask them why they feel it is unnatural.  What, specifically, do they object to?  Then ask them to demonstrate what they believe to be more natural.  

Now you have something to discuss.  That is how we learn, by looking at things, looking at them again and then looking at them from another angle, etc.  

Regarding that specific move, I used to use it, but put it aside in favor of another approach.  Not because I found it unnatural at all, I just found one that "felt" better.  I'm assuming you are referring to the one in the big book put out by Kaufman.  Tremendous book, by the way.

The lift is knacky, but once you train your third finger to gauge two cards, it is easy.  It replicates a "stud" turnover.  If you can do the Stuart Gordon handling of the DL, that can work nicely with it in a hybrid sort of way.

On to your other point.  Yes, doing a move consistently can create the atmosphere of naturalness.  The biggest tell in magic is when a magician alters his or her technique when a sleight has to be accomplished.  If you count cards a certain way, then count them that way all of the time.  If you shuffle one way, don't change it up unless there is a reason to do so.  There may be a good reason to do so, such as not having a table handy.  Tabled 'Faros' are best done seated at a table with a close-up pad, for example.  Overhand shuffles can be done any time, any place.  

Some go to the extent of always false shuffling, whether they need to or not, just to maintain uniformity.  

The Faro Shuffle is somewhat unique in that most people have never seen it.  I suppose many people are also unfamiliar with the Hindu Shuffle, but at least it bears some resemblance to an overhand shuffle.  You just hold them in a different manner.  Some feel the need to explain the shuffle.  Some call it a 'Las Vegas Shuffle', or something like that.  Some make no apologies or feel the need to, they just do it.  The shuffle is definitely out of the ordinary and I think you could describe it as unnatural.  So how do you deal with that?  How do you explain the fact that you suddenly use that shuffle in order to help achieve an effect?  Do you need to?  Does it help or does it make it worse?  In other words is it better for them to wonder or is it better to tell them it is a special shuffle?  Do they then begin to wonder what's so special and why do you need it in this particular instance at this moment?  Is it possible we sometimes overthink it?  


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Matt G

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Reply with quote  #14 
I've found that the Faro shuffle works great for me because I can justify/explain because it splits up pairs, and appears to very fairly mix up the cards (especially if done multiple times). People (at least in the US) are familiar with the bridge, so when they see a bridge action, they assume it's a completely fair shuffle. Often I just do it. The mathematical principles behind it are a mystery to everybody outside of the magic communities.

Paul Gertner's trademark effect with the Faro Shuffle, he is literally telling people he is unshuffling the deck, while performing a Faro Shuffle, and it's still to this day one of the most magical experiences I've had.

I do struggle with the Hindu shuffle. If I don't explain it, people ask me "why are you shuffling like that, I've never seen that before". "Oh, it's just another way of mixing up the cards" and I'll do a full deck false overhand to show it doesn't really matter how I'm mixing them, then go back to the Hindu. But even if they don't ask, I can kinda feel that's what they're thinking. But -- a lot of that is probably because I don't use it to mix up cards often outside of the context of Chicago Opener or other bottom card forces, so I'm lacking the uniformity of action.

The more I think about it, the more I realize though -- if the deck really could be shuffled, then I'd ask the spectator to shuffle, I wouldn't do it myself. And yet, nobody has ever really called me out on false overhand or Zarrow or anything else.

How do you guys deal with Hindu shuffles?

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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #15 
If you watch some of Michael Bs videos here, you see he uses the Hindu Shuffle quite a bit.  So perhaps since he uses it often, it becomes "natural" to those he performs to reqularly.

I don't typically use it myself.  Not that I have a big problem with it.  But say for example you want to force the bottom card, you could do it by using Harry Lorayne's 'HaLo Cut'  instead.  

I used to use the Hindu during a color-changing deck effect.  Then I realized that was the only time I used the shuffle in my work.  So I figured I'd eliminate it.  Did I make the right choice?  I felt it was right for ME.  If you only use it for one routine and never use it otherwise and it doesn't bother you, carry on!  I just came to a different conclusion.  

Matt, you are right in that most people don't understand the properties of a faro shuffle.  But I've seen some magicians tell the audience about the "weave" and even ribbon spread the deck in order to demonstrate what is going on.  Does it work for them?  I think it matters WHY you re doing the Faro Shuffle in the first place.  Are you wanting the principle to remain hidden or not?  Depends upon the effect I suppose.
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Reply with quote  #16 
My wife doesn't perform a lot of card magic. In fact, she really only performs one effect that relies on the Hindu Shuffle. 
She just says, "As I mix the cards, just say stop at anytime." 
The audience member says stop, she shows them the card and she moves on. 
No one has ever called her out on it. 
No one has ever come up to her after the show and said "I know what you did there." 
She has a fun routine. People enjoy watching it. The ending always gets gasps. 
The Hindu Shuffle is not an issue for her. 

I use it on occasion as well. I use a variety of shuffles. I don't try to qualify or justify any of them. 
I just do them. 
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVILDAN
My wife doesn't perform a lot of card magic. In fact, she really only performs one effect that relies on the Hindu Shuffle. 
She just says, "As I mix the cards, just say stop at anytime." 
The audience member says stop, she shows them the card and she moves on. 
No one has ever called her out on it. 
No one has ever come up to her after the show and said "I know what you did there." 
She has a fun routine. People enjoy watching it. The ending always gets gasps. 
The Hindu Shuffle is not an issue for her. 

I use it on occasion as well. I use a variety of shuffles. I don't try to qualify or justify any of them. 
I just do them. 


And most of the time people won't have a problem with it, or question it.

Sometimes we're definitely guilty of over-thinking things.  I probably am.  I decided not to use it just on the basis of conformity.  I didn't want to "pull it out of the blue" as it were.
I thought that might be out of character and as such, invite questions.  Maybe it wouldn't have?  Still, it was the decision I made.  
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EVILDAN

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Reply with quote  #18 
I think it helps if you're comfortable performing it or "selling it" for that matter. 
There are a number of effects that kill but I don't perform because I just have a problem with them: Invis!ble DeK, Psychologicl 4ces, and the Tossd Out DeK. 
I know they all get great reactions. I see fellow performers kill with them time and time again. I just can't sell it. 
So, I leave them out. 
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVILDAN
I think it helps if you're comfortable performing it or "selling it" for that matter. 
There are a number of effects that kill but I don't perform because I just have a problem with them: Invis!ble DeK, Psychologicl 4ces, and the Tossd Out DeK. 
I know they all get great reactions. I see fellow performers kill with them time and time again. I just can't sell it. 
So, I leave them out. 


I can distinctly remember the first time I saw TOD.  It was at a magician's convention, don't remember which one.  It blew everyone away.  One of the things that has always occurred to me though is what if the three people congregate afterwards and compare notes?

Of course, the rest of the audience will still be mystified, and there is a chance that the three people will remain dumbfounded, but there is a better chance they won't.  

We have several "math people" here.  I'm sure they could calculate all of the odds, giving percentages of the various outcomes.  

Personally, I have never done it, but if the crowd was big enough I'd give it a go.

BTW, for what it's worth, the guy who invented it was a friend of my mother and I got to meet him when I was a kid.
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GregB

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Reply with quote  #20 
I have done the TOD a couple times and both times it has gotten great reactions. It was pretty fun seeing a couple spectators look of amazement come across their face when I was talking through the cards and they started nodding when I said their card, so that even got me ahead a little bit! I have a booklet from Wayne Dobson that I think really makes the TOD much more powerful. Instead of naming the 3 cards and asking them all to sit down at the same time, you go one by one with the spectators. "If I named your card please sit down, wow that was pretty lucky, but maybe its not luck" turn to next spectator "If I named your card please sit down" etc.. This way I think it clears up some confusion and builds the effect very nicely.
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Paco Nagata

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ
I'm assuming that your "mates" are fellow magicians.  Othewise, they wouldn't be discussing technique on a double.

That's right. Sometimes I have some semantic problems.
I should have said better fellow magicians ^_^'
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ
I'm sure they are basing their opinion on something tangible, such as their personal experience.  When things like this happen I think it is fair to ask them why they feel it is unnatural.  What, specifically, do they object to?  Then ask them to demonstrate what they believe to be more natural.

Every time I have asked those questions to those fellow magicians they have amswered the same thing:
"Lay people wouldn't do that to turn over a card."
And I've always replied the following:
But we are not "lay people," but magicians. It's NATURAL for a MAGICIANS to show a little bit of ELEGANCE with the deck of cards, or to show different card handlings just for a change.
If you act often like that, those movements could become natural, at least in you.
Some agreed, some disagreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ
I'm assuming you are referring to the one in the big book put out by Kaufman.  Tremendous book, by the way.

Yes. "The Complete Works of Derek Dingle."
Me too, at the begining considered the move rare, or knacky (interesting adjetive ^_^), but I noticed something interesting as I was using it... All my personal spectators considered it as just a beautiful or elegant way to turn over the card. So, never suspicious. So, I started to think about the concept of Naturalness as simple something that is done frecuently.
By the way, sometimes I show a kind of justification when I use this move by routines in which I can look at the card first, conveying some mistery. For example, in an Ambitious Card Routine you may say: "...and the card... (you glimpse first) come to the top!" and you finish to turn it over happily.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ
The biggest tell in magic is when a magician alters his or her technique when a sleight has to be accomplished

Good point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ
If you count cards a certain way, then count them that way all of the time.  If you shuffle one way, don't change it up unless there is a reason to do so.  There may be a good reason to do so, such as not having a table handy.  Tabled 'Faros' are best done seated at a table with a close-up pad, for example.  Overhand shuffles can be done any time, any place.  

Some go to the extent of always false shuffling, whether they need to or not, just to maintain uniformity.

Smart thinking.
Uniformity is the WORD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ
I suppose many people are also unfamiliar with the Hindu Shuffle, but at least it bears some resemblance to an overhand shuffle.

Well, it is not unnatural for Asian people.
There is a theory that says that because Asian people have generally smaller hands than occidental people, they feel more comfortable with the "Hindu Shuffle."
Actually, anytime I have performed card magic for my wife's family (in Japan) they have shuffled the deck most of the time à la Hindu, specially women.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ
Is it possible we sometimes overthink it?

Unfortunatelly, we magicians are the ones that overthink about what we do.
So, definitely I invoke again Socrates' words "Your state of mind is all important..." as well as your ideal and perfect points:
"Harry Lorayne always talks about attitude. This goes hand-in-hand with Vernon's admonition about not making unimportant things important."
And the cherry on this beautiful cake of you, Ray:
"Success is being able to weave several principles together to create a stronger whole".

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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #22 
From Paco's post:

"Well, it is not unnatural for Asian people."

You are 100% correct!  I wan't meaning it is unnatural in countries where they typically shuffle that way.  I am guilty of sometimes making statements that pertain to conditions in the U.S. and forgetting that we have a global readership.  I'm sorry for that!

Also, "knacky" is a common term here.  We talk about getting the "knack" for something after some practice.  So a "knacky" move would be one that takes a certain amount of repetition to get down.  

Again, I'm guilty of using a term that has regional understanding.

Thanks for the feedback on my response.  It is though this kind of feedback that we attain understanding.  I like how you split it up into "bite-sized" chunks,  makes it easy to follow.

All too often someone will make a lengthy post and then there is little-to-no response, or maybe one small detail is commented upon.  This is the kind of communication I think is helpful and facilitates understanding.

So thanks!
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Paco Nagata

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt G
How do you guys deal with Hindu shuffles?

Usually I don't say anything. Just do it. However, when I perform for "potential dangerous" spectators I may say: "I'll shuffle very clearly," or "I'll show you the card very clearly"... some comments that may justify a "different" move.
In my humble opinion, spectators normaly see the Hindu shuffle as just a different way of shuffling; a way that takes more time but looks more clear.

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Reply with quote  #24 
I don't think you need to justify the Hindu Shuffle.  You don't need to explain it at all, just do it.  Some do justify it by saying it is a shuffle used in Asia.  When I was really young I used to do the 'Slop Shuffle Triumph' quite a bit and it benefitted from having a bridge in the deck.  As a joke I would spring the cards and tell the audience it was a 'Russian Shuffle', you know, the one where each card is rushin' after the others.  

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Paco Nagata

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ
From Paco's post:

"Well, it is not unnatural for Asian people."

You are 100% correct!  I wan't meaning it is unnatural in countries where they typically shuffle that way.  I am guilty of sometimes making statements that pertain to conditions in the U.S. and forgetting that we have a global readership.  I'm sorry for that!

Never mind, Ray!
That happened to me too in Japan regarding traditions! And apologised too, and viceversa :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ
Thanks for the feedback on my response.  It is though this kind of feedback that we attain understanding.  I like how you split it up into "bite-sized" chunks,  makes it easy to follow.

All too often someone will make a lengthy post and then there is little-to-no response, or maybe one small detail is commented upon.  This is the kind of communication I think is helpful and facilitates understanding.

So thanks!

It's me that have to say thanks for your great feedback regarding my post!
I didn't answered you before because I was busy, but I was very happy with your feedback.

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Paco Nagata

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Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJ
I don't think you need to justify the Hindu Shuffle.  You don't need to explain it at all, just do it.  Some do justify it by saying it is a shuffle used in Asia.  When I was really young I used to do the 'Slop Shuffle Triumph' quite a bit and it benefitted from having a bridge in the deck.  As a joke I would spring the cards and tell the audience it was a 'Russian Shuffle', you know, the one where each card is rushin' after the others.  


Absolutly. It's unnecessary justify the Hindu shuffle.
It's supposed to be just a shuffle.

I usually call the "Slop Shuffle" the "Drunken shuffle."
For the Triumph routine I say:
"a drunken guy took the deck and shuffled that way..."
So, finally I get the deck magically tidy and find out the spectator's card :-)

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Magic Harry

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Reply with quote  #27 
Then there's the Mexican Shuffle....one revolution after another.[wink]
Magic Harry

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Harry Damareck
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RayJ

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Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic Harry
Then there's the Mexican Shuffle....one revolution after another.[wink]
Magic Harry


Good one!
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Rudy Tinoco

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic Harry
Then there's the Mexican Shuffle....one revolution after another.[wink]
Magic Harry


Haha!!

You made this Mexican laugh!

Rudy

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Magic Harry

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Reply with quote  #30 
Glad you both enjoyed that. But it's so old.
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Rudy Tinoco

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic Harry
Glad you both enjoyed that. But it's so old.
Magic Harry


I’m only 46. It new to me :)

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chris w

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Reply with quote  #32 
Someone has not read the "Sense and Nonsense with Cards" section of The Cardician lately! [wink]
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